HALF OF KIDS IN FOSTER CARE NEEDLESSLY

Question:

Thought I might add: I’ve just done a sort of relevant web page… http://www.MyKid2.org/DadsHoliday.html

Response:

"Greg Hanson" <Gree…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:35120b16.0312092300.70f79acd@posting.google.com… > This is not unique to L.A.  Not at all. > Last week a story was posted from Arizona where > a CASEWORKER acknowledged that half of all reports > of abuse there are from grandparents who "don’t like > the way the grandkids are being raised". > (IE. Second Guessing parents for non-ABUSE reasons.)

IE no figures to support the claim.  The "possible word" of a single caseworker is not enough to make it true.  Maybe he/she was having a bad day, didn’t like a particular grandparent at that moment, or maybe it was even that time of the month.  Why don’t you put some meat on that plate greg, we tire of a diet of air. Ron

Response:

"Ron" <apositivepl…@netscape.net> wrote in message

news:qwKBb.24290$5g.17053@okepread04… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Greg Hanson" <Gree…@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:35120b16.0312092300.70f79acd@posting.google.com… > > This is not unique to L.A.  Not at all. > > Last week a story was posted from Arizona where > > a CASEWORKER acknowledged that half of all reports > > of abuse there are from grandparents who "don’t like > > the way the grandkids are being raised". > > (IE. Second Guessing parents for non-ABUSE reasons.) > IE no figures to support the claim.  The "possible word" of a single > caseworker is not enough to make it true.  Maybe he/she was having a bad > day, didn’t like a particular grandparent at that moment, or maybe it was > even that time of the month.  Why don’t you put some meat on that plate > greg, we tire of a diet of air.

What’s with this obsession with statistics ? If you were to get a detailed report of statistics in Arizona, you might then say it doesn’t apply to other states or you might question the creteria for establishing what constitutes abuse etcetera… Does it matter if it ’s 49%, 79% or 29%, my question is, who is going to do anything about it ? I am pleased that a professional caseworker has had the courage to speak about about what he or she thought was wrong and hope that many more follow his/her and Greg’s example until the responsible authorities start to take note or lose face… and their responsibility.

Response:

"ChrisScaife" <ChrisSca…@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message

news:cjLBb.25343$VV6.587672@news.xtra.co.nz… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Ron" <apositivepl…@netscape.net> wrote in message > news:qwKBb.24290$5g.17053@okepread04… > > "Greg Hanson" <Gree…@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:35120b16.0312092300.70f79acd@posting.google.com… > > > This is not unique to L.A.  Not at all. > > > Last week a story was posted from Arizona where > > > a CASEWORKER acknowledged that half of all reports > > > of abuse there are from grandparents who "don’t like > > > the way the grandkids are being raised". > > > (IE. Second Guessing parents for non-ABUSE reasons.) > > IE no figures to support the claim.  The "possible word" of a single > > caseworker is not enough to make it true.  Maybe he/she was having a bad > > day, didn’t like a particular grandparent at that moment, or maybe it was > > even that time of the month.  Why don’t you put some meat on that plate > > greg, we tire of a diet of air. > What’s with this obsession with statistics ?

Simple sir.  After reading here for a while you too will understand the need for statistics, as many specious claims are made by the "anti-CPS" mob. Rarely do they back their claims, and even when they do they twist those statistics to met their own specific agenda and to hell with how accurate they are.  But, with the numbers in hand one can usually find the flaw in their arguments quite quickly.  Without some form of support for a claim (such as the one greg alludes to) these posts are pretty much SPAM. > If you were to get a detailed report of statistics in Arizona, you might > then say it doesn’t apply to other states > or you might question the creteria for establishing what constitutes abuse > etcetera…

Actually I have seen the detailed numbers for Arizona.  They are freely available right here on the web, one only has to take the time to find them. See the link at the bottom of this post, that should get you started in the right direction. > Does it matter if it ’s 49%, 79% or 29%, my question is, who is going to do > anything about it ?

We the citizens.  Through concerned and thoughtful action.  Not by taking off in 300 different directions, not by advocating for the total destruction of anything having to do with CPS, not by making specious and silly claims in a Usenet news group.  I am doing something about it.  I am a foster parent.  I work for positive change in the system from within the system. > I am pleased that a professional caseworker has had the courage to speak > about about what he or she thought was wrong and hope that many more follow > his/her and Greg’s example until the responsible authorities start to take > note or lose face… and their responsibility.

Courage, maybe.  A responsible action?  Not likely.  Was it this person’s place to make a public spectacle of the issue, or would it have been better to address the issue within the department responsible and allow them to deal with the problem?  Oh, and please don’t say that this never works, I know better than that. Personally I think not permanently removing children from an abusive parent is a questionable practice.  I personally think that anyone that allows a child access to a weapon (gun or otherwise) must be held responsible for any action that a child takes with that weapon.  I think quite a few things around the world are wrong, but would it be responsible of me to get in front of a member of the media and announce it?  No, not really.  Positive change is not made that way, only profit from the sales of newspapers. Ron http://www.calib.com/nccanch/

Response:

Ron wrote: > we tire of a diet of air.

What you meant to say was you suck wind.

Response:

On 10 Dec 2003 16:22:55 -0800, Gree…@hotmail.com (Greg Hanson) wrote: >Ron wrote: > we tire of a diet of air. >What you meant to say was you suck wind.

Ron, Greegor has finally figured out he has nothing to contribute of any worth…so he has taken up Agriculture recently, with his own special flair, but basic Plantlife actitities. He will find a bit in the media, post it, pretend he understands it, say something innane about it, when confronted he attempts a lame flame, not understanding that the essense of the good and purposeful flame is to base it on fact, and comeback with some facts along with the flame. I guess, along with Foster Children, you called on to, from time to time, educate the few children on Usenet. Seems a small group of us are saddled with this task, <sigh>, but hey, the rewards are great when one of them falls on their ass publically enough often enough and learns. Of course this particular one is so sick he doesn’t even know when to be embarrassed. Kane

Response:

Tanks Ron, sorry if I snipped a bit too much there… You said: > Simple sir.  After reading here for a while you too will understand the need > for statistics, as many specious claims are made by the "anti-CPS" mob.

I’ll admit to total ignorance regarding how things are done in the US of A… but is it really that clear cut… you ar either anti- or pro- something. Don’t you think sometimes people get it wrong even with the best intentions and other people abuse the system for their own personal benefit? Greg, I gather, is pro- spanking. I do not agree with that as I think there are always better alternatives, however I doubt Greg is pro- child abuse, he might even respect my non-spanking approach even though he himself does not agree with it. > Rarely do they back their claims, and even when they do they twist those > statistics to met their own specific agenda and to hell with how accurate > they are.  But, with the numbers in hand one can usually find the flaw in > their arguments quite quickly.  Without some form of support for a claim > (such as the one greg alludes to) these posts are pretty much SPAM.

I don’t visit the NG to read scientific publications and don’t expect to find them here. IMHO, if  authorities wish to intervene it is *their* responsibility to justify that intervention, not the responsibility of their critics to prove them wrong. > > If you were to get a detailed report of statistics in Arizona, you might > > then say it doesn’t apply to other states > > or you might question the creteria for establishing what constitutes abuse > > etcetera… > Actually I have seen the detailed numbers for Arizona.  They are freely > available right here on the web, one only has to take the time to find them. > See the link at the bottom of this post, that should get you started in the > right direction.

Fair dinkum, then all you need is to post what you think is relevant to discredit the allegations made by the caseworker that Greg cited. I can see nothing wrong in posting a reference to the article about the case worker. As for disputing credibility of statistics, that works both ways: An organisation that depends on justifying it’s work to get government funding isn’t going to be any more honest than it’s victims. The main thing is that their intervention must be justified… and not the other way round. > > Does it matter if it ’s 49%, 79% or 29%, my uestion is, who is going to > do > > anything about it ? > We the citizens.  Through concerned and thoughtful action.  Not by taking > off in 300 different directions, not by advocating for the total destruction > of anything having to do with CPS, not by making specious and silly claims > in a Usenet news group.

In my experience most citizens read the statistics, then say "tut tut what is the world coming to" and go back to their work. There is no shame in people expressing thier opinion on an NG. Isn’t that an aspect of what freedom and democracy are about ? If the suffragettes had simply addressed the appropriate authorities, if Ghandi, Martin Luther King, or Mandela had followed correct procedure, would the world today be a better place ? The complaint is that CPS sometimes places children unnecessarily in foster care. I didn’t get the message that *everything* it does is wrong. I didn’t get the message that foster parents are no good. >… I am a foster > parent.  I work for positive change in the system from within the system.

That is good and I have great respect for the work you do. > > I am pleased that a professional caseworker has had the courage to speak > > about about what he or she thought was wrong and hope that many more > follow > > his/her and Greg’s example until the responsible authorities start to take > > note or lose face… and their responsibility. > Courage, maybe.  A responsible action?  Not likely.  Was it this person’s > place to make a public spectacle of the issue, or would it have been better > to address the issue within the department responsible and allow them to > deal with the problem?  Oh, and please don’t say that this never works, I > know better than that.

No I won’t say that. However sometimes one cannot depend on people in one department blowing the whistle on their coleagues in another. That person acted out of conscience. Wrong or right, that should be respected. If he/she is given the sack next week for speaking out of turn and not towing company policy then it will be one less person who cares and one more position filled by  a jobs-worth bureaucrat. > Personally I think not permanently removing children from an abusive parent > is a questionable practice.

…and I think such intervention would have to be justified. Personally I find that allocating my son to my ex and her abusive lover and allowing them to deny me access and attempting to justify that by filing false charges against me very distasteful… and DS isn’t happy about it either, I can tell you that for a fact! >…I think quite a few things > around the world are wrong, but would it be responsible of me to get in > front of a member of the media and announce it?

Well, if you did, I *would* respect you for it… I might not agree with what you said but I shall defend your right to say it. Chris. P.S. Check out my new website and slag it off if you like, but it’s what I beleive and I’ll defend my right to say it  http://www.MyKid2.org

Response:

> Personally I think not permanently removing children from an abusive parent > is a questionable practice.  I personally think that anyone that allows a > child access to a weapon (gun or otherwise) must be held responsible for any > action that a child takes with that weapon.  I think quite a few things > around the world are wrong, but would it be responsible of me to get in > front of a member of the media and announce it?  No, not really.  Positive > change is not made that way, only profit from the sales of newspapers. > Ron

Aside from the debate surrounding the number of children in foster care, I’m not sure I completely agree with you. Yes, it would be horrible to leave a child in a home situation that is abusive, but can you honestly hold parents responsible for all actions taken by their children. Sure, parents shouldn’t leave guns around the house, I won’t argue that, but when do you expect children to take responsibility for themselves? We can’t blame parents forever. Yes, parents need to be responsible and children should be removed from abusive homes, but at what point are you going to hold kids accountable for themselves?

Response:

"ChrisScaife" <ChrisSca…@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message

news:mWPBb.25578$VV6.593692@news.xtra.co.nz… > Tanks Ron, sorry if I snipped a bit too much there… You said: > > Simple sir.  After reading here for a while you too will understand the > need > > for statistics, as many specious claims are made by the "anti-CPS" mob. > I’ll admit to total ignorance regarding how things are done in the US of > A…

Congratulations.  Admitting that you don’t know something is the first step towards knowledge. > but is it really that clear cut… you ar either anti- or pro- something. > Don’t you think sometimes people get it wrong even with the best intentions > and other people abuse the system for their own personal benefit?

Clear cut?  Is anything "Clear cut"?  No, its not.  Some people here absolutely refuse to see the benefits of the system, and others like myself see the benefits, and the changes that need to be made. > Greg, I gather, is pro- spanking. I do not agree with that as I think there > are always better alternatives, however I doubt Greg is pro- child abuse, he > might even respect my non-spanking approach even though he himself does not > agree with it.

I dont know if he is pro-spanking or not.  He’s not a parent so it does not really matter.  I do know however that he is not pro-child abuse.  But then again he does not understand what child abuse is, as is evidenced by his own abuse of his S.O.’s child and his refusal to acknowledge that it was indeed abuse.  You can find out more about his particular case by searching historic poss in this news group. Does he respect your position?  I doubt it.  greg respects very little, and no one that does not agree with his personal views. > > Rarely do they back their claims, and even when they do they twist those > > statistics to met their own specific agenda and to hell with how accurate > > they are.  But, with the numbers in hand one can usually find the flaw in > > their arguments quite quickly.  Without some form of support for a claim > > (such as the one greg alludes to) these posts are pretty much SPAM. > I don’t visit the NG to read scientific publications and don’t expect to > find them here. > IMHO, if  authorities wish to intervene it is *their* responsibility to > justify that intervention, not the responsibility of their critics to prove > them wrong.

That’s a good position.  And the authorities here in the USA justify those interventions, in front of a court, in each and every case.  Its a part of our legal system here.  But, as with anything in a free society, there are those who refuse to acknowledge the authority of that legal system to make those decisions, or believe that the decisions made are wrong.  That’s one of the nice things about our system, people ARE allowed to disagree.  They are the small but loud minority, and usually quite easy to disprove. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > If you were to get a detailed report of statistics in Arizona, you might > > > then say it doesn’t apply to other states > > > or you might question the creteria for establishing what constitutes > abuse > > > etcetera… > > Actually I have seen the detailed numbers for Arizona.  They are freely > > available right here on the web, one only has to take the time to find > them. > > See the link at the bottom of this post, that should get you started in > the > > right direction. > Fair dinkum, then all you need is to post what you think is relevant to > discredit the allegations made by the caseworker that Greg cited. > I can see nothing wrong in posting a reference to the article about the case > worker.

The problem is that this is the belief of a single individual caseworker. The figures dont exist to support her claim, and greg knows it.  The figures are not broken down that specifically.  They get to groups of reporters by employment, but not to relationship.  Thats why I asked him to provide some form of support, I knew that it did not exist. > As for disputing credibility of statistics, that works both ways: An > organisation that depends on justifying it’s work to get government funding > isn’t going to be any more honest than it’s victims. The main thing is that > their intervention must be justified… and not the other way round.

That’s a sad outlook.  Funding is indeed important, but what specific individual benefits from falsification?  Answer:  None. Funding is a part of the vehicle needed to providing services.  An absolutely necessary part.  But the anti-CPS mob would have us believe that it is the only driving factor in the entire system.  There has even been a poster here who stated that CPS workers drive around neighborhoods looking for kids to snatch so that they could line their own pockets with the funding received for the care of these children. As I said earlier, the authorities here in the USA justify those interventions, in front of a court, in each and every case.  Without exception.  I have said this many times over the years.  Of course the argument from there degenerates to "they are all lining their pockets, its a conspiracy".  Well, as you can imagine, the anti-CPS Mob argument at this point has degraded to the point of school yard name calling.  Unable to support their belief’s with anything resembling proof they resort to childishness.  Something best left in the school yard and not here. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > Does it matter if it ’s 49%, 79% or 29%, my uestion is, who is going to > > do > > > anything about it ? > > We the citizens.  Through concerned and thoughtful action.  Not by taking > > off in 300 different directions, not by advocating for the total > destruction > > of anything having to do with CPS, not by making specious and silly claims > > in a Usenet news group. > In my experience most citizens read the statistics, then say "tut tut what > is the world coming to" and go back to their work.

Those that read them, yes. > There is no shame in people expressing thier opinion on an NG. Isn’t that an > aspect of what freedom and democracy are about ?

Sure, its its also about being able to challenge someone’s belief’s, specially when they are wrong. > If the suffragettes had simply addressed the appropriate authorities, if > Ghandi, Martin Luther King, or Mandela had followed correct procedure, would > the world today be a better place ?

Possibly, but you can be sure that more people would have survived. > The complaint is that CPS sometimes places children unnecessarily in foster > care. > I didn’t get the message that *everything* it does is wrong. > I didn’t get the message that foster parents are no good.

Then you need to read a bit more here. > >… I am a foster > > parent.  I work for positive change in the system from within the system. > That is good and I have great respect for the work you do.

In this news group you are one of the few. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > I am pleased that a professional caseworker has had the courage to speak > > > about about what he or she thought was wrong and hope that many more > > follow > > > his/her and Greg’s example until the responsible authorities start to > take > > > note or lose face… and their responsibility. > > Courage, maybe.  A responsible action?  Not likely.  Was it this person’s > > place to make a public spectacle of the issue, or would it have been > better > > to address the issue within the department responsible and allow them to > > deal with the problem?  Oh, and please don’t say that this never works, I > > know better than that. > No I won’t say that. However sometimes one cannot depend on people in one > department blowing the whistle on their coleagues in another. > That person acted out of conscience. Wrong or right, that should be > respected.

They "may" have acted out of conscience.  They may have also acted out of spite.  Or out of a sense of revenge, or because they have had a bad day, or any one of a number of reasons. Respected?  Only if true.  This individual didn’t provide any support for their statement, and that makes it suspect. > If he/she is given the sack next week for speaking out of turn and not > towing company policy then it will be one less person who cares and one more > position filled by  a jobs-worth bureaucrat.

Maybe.  It may also be one less person in a job that they don’t like, or one less person that is unable to deal with the obvious pressures of their job, or even one less person who feels the need to strike out at someone for some reason we will never know.  There are to many possibilities for us to say for sure that this was a person that cared.  Here, one must look at the most likely possibilities because we often lack the information needed to form a solid opinion. > > Personally I think not permanently removing children from an abusive > parent > > is a questionable practice. > …and I think such intervention would have to be justified. > Personally I find that allocating my son to my ex and her abusive lover and > allowing them to deny me access and attempting to justify that by filing > false charges against me very distasteful… and DS isn’t happy about it > either, I can tell you that for a fact!

But can you show us those facts?  Obviously no you cannot. > >…I think quite a few things > > around the world are wrong, but would it be responsible of me to get in > > front of a member of the media and announce it? > Well, if you did, I *would* respect you for it… > I might not agree with what you said but I shall defend your right to say > it.

Well Chris, respect is a wonderful thing, but has no substance.  The trick is learning when and where to say things so that they have the most affect. Where they do the most good.  I don’t believe that the best place to make mention of these type of concerns is EVER in front of the liberal media, unless it is an absolute last resort.  And I do mean LAST.  The media is all to often reporting things in the most sensationalist way possible simply to sell papers … read more »

Response:

On 11 Dec 2003 19:40:06 -0800, Gree…@hotmail.com (Greg Hanson) wrote: >LaVonne wrote >> Of course, it’s doubtful that this would have >> helped your case.  Sexual molestation of children >> is not that well tolerated by even the most >> overworked, underpaid, and undereducated CPS worker. >LaVonne, This is quite interesting since nowhere >in my families case has sexual molestation been >an issue.  In fact, one of OUR biggest issues is >that a CPS caseworker fabricated a >""Sex Abuse History"" for me and attested to this >falsehood in an affidavit to court.

But somehow you were unable to use this and convince a judge that you were an upstanding citizen…hmmmm? I am so naive at times. I tend to want to believe the claims that folks make here…That’s what pisses me off so when, after a time, it becomes obvious they were lying. Old Kane Doan like to be Fertilized upon..no no no. Now the more I look at this claim, that you were innocent and the worker "fabricated," the more I’m beginning to want to see a bit more convincing rendition of the story. Just a bit too much like your other "I’m the victim here" whining, that ignores the child. Whaddayahgot, Greegor? Kane

Response:

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 03:01:37 GMT, "R. Steve Walz" <rste…@armory.com> wrote: >Greg Hanson wrote: >> "R. Steve Walz" <rste…@armory.com> wrote in message >> Funny considering how much STEVE posts like Kane! >> Secret identity or "joined at the medulla" as Kane wrote? >—————- >Linked by the "coincidence" of knowledge and intelligence. >Never met him, but I’d like to.

Ever been to the Blue Jay beach? R R R R The one with the blue mailbox, back in the 60-70’s? >> Some other group called their opponents filth…. >> Their art was called ""degenerate"" >> They were rounded up and put them on boxcars! >> Is that your solution? >————————– >I’d love it! Evil done to Evil people is called Good! >The difference with the Nazi’s is that THEY were the >Evil People and that the Jews had done nothing wrong!! >That you can’t seem to see the difference *IS* your sickness!

He can’t even tell that punishing a child for wetting herself is abusive. How would he see the other things, that we know are detremental to children, are abusive as well? He, like so many really evil people, have a very high opinion of themselves. >> Steve wrote >> > You must mean good and evil done to >> > children and their rights.  Little evil >> > vicious maggots like you always pretend >> > that means something, when it only means >> > that your whole mode of thought >> > is nothing but a criminal sickness. >> Berkelyesque without the erudition?

Now what kind of crap is that? Liquified for The Plant? It will think you are smart, but not anyone else. >> How did that happen? >> My mode of thought is a criminal sickness?

Why yes. You finally got it then? Naw, you were just dodging the truth. Anyone reading your story here, except a Plant and a Dodger Weasel, would get it you are sick and need help….of various kinds. >> Thank you George Orwell.

And much of what he wrote in 1984 is coming to pass…hence, as Steve says…. >———————- >Truth.

And very much so about dangerou schmucks such as you, Greegor the Whore. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > > Obviously. >> > > In your mind it takes some pathology for >> > > someone to disagree with you. >> >———————— >> > About right and wrong, sure. >> > And so what’s your point? >> > Steve >> My point was that Kane and or you label anybody >> who doesn’t see things YOUR WAY as evil, wrong, >> ill and anything negative you can come up with. >————————— >But it *IS* the Truth, and I can’t help that. >Steve

Response:

"ChrisScaife" <ChrisSca…@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message

news:_r6Cb.26462$VV6.613892@news.xtra.co.nz… > "Ron" <apositivepl…@netscape.net> wrote in message > news:bX1Cb.16$5Q6.7@okepread04… > It is an often voiced complaint that parents are unjustly being deprived of > contact with their kids. > Not necessarily by the CPS.

Thats outside the pervue of the news group.  Mad Dad’s have their own news group. > I have personal experience of dealings with CAFCASS  who give advice to the > courts in England > I have no hestation in stating that their advise in divorce cases is utterly > worthless. > A sentiment voiced by others e.g. www.equalparenting.org

Worthless for you maybe, but you are a single individual.  My guess is that the british version of CPS gets it right far more often than it gets it wrong. > Similar accusations made against CPS did not surprise me although I’ll > concede it is a different organisation and you are talking about > "protective" custody > not contact and residency following divorce .

CPS does get involved in some cases, but not many.  Usually when the have been accusations of abuse of some kind, and then for the protection of ALL parties involved. > >… Some people here > > absolutely refuse to see the benefits of the system, and others like > myself > > see the benefits, and the changes that need to be made. > Fine.  I’m not one to dispute that CPS get it right too. In fact it would be > a total outrage if they didn’t.

 Agreed. > If you, as someone who knows more about them should express your views on > what changes need to be made that would surely be > constructive, not necessarily lumping you in the "anti-CPS mob".

I have expressed my views quite a number of times.  The usual response is to be called a "CPS Apologist", not a concerned citizen.  Oh well, "Sitcks and stones….." > > … greg respects very little, and > > no one that does not agree with his personal views. > Whatever  views he holds do not concern me. > I did read the article that he cited and it struck a chord with my own > experience.

OK, but greg uses it as an example of the typical caseworker.  This of course is not true. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > I don’t visit the NG to read scientific publications and don’t expect to > > > find them here. > > > IMHO, if  authorities wish to intervene it is *their* responsibility to > > > justify that intervention, not the responsibility of their critics to > > >prove them wrong. > > That’s a good position.  And the authorities here in the USA justify those > > interventions, in front of a court, in each and every case.  Its a part of > > our legal system here.  But, as with anything in a free society, there are > > those who refuse to acknowledge the authority of that legal system to make > > those decisions, or believe that the decisions made are wrong.  That’s one > > of the nice things about our system, people ARE allowed to disagree. They > > are the small but loud minority, and usually quite easy to disprove. > I take it then that you have statistics on how often they get it wrong , and > what percentage of the population consitutes this "loud minority". > I can’t find a credible source of those.

"Only half of the child victims (55.4% or an estimated 478,000) received postinvestigation services that were provided in addition to conducting an investigation or assessment as a response to an allegation of maltreatment. Of the children who were not found to be victims of maltreatment, 18.7 percent or an estimated 385,000 children received postinvestigation services.5 This compares to 55.8 percent of child victims and 14.2 percent of child nonvictims who received services in 1999." http://nccanch.acf.hhs.gov/frames/frameset_c.cfm?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww… > I do know of a lot of angry dads who have been taken to the cleaners and are > deprived of their children are CPS involved in the USA

Taken to the cleaners by whom?  The state?  No, that would be incorrect. "The cleaners" are unhappy ex-wife’s. > what if mum decides to lodge a claim of abuse against dad ? Any protection > from false allegations ?

Nope.  Not yet, but some states are getting something like that in place. The reason is that allegations are not prosecutions, only prompts for an investigation.  Statistics reveal that mum is far more likely to abuse her children than Dad. "A "Mother Only" was reported as the perpetrator for 40.0 percent of child victims (figure 4-2). A "Father Only" accounted for 16.6 percent of victims, and "Both Parents" accounted for 18.7 percent." http://nccanch.acf.hhs.gov/frames/frameset_c.cfm?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww… > It is wrong to expect parents to take further court action in a system that > is heavily stacked against them.

Court action?  Heck no, that’s the proper way to deal with the issue.  But the system is not "stacked against them", it is stacked in favor of protecting the child, and that is as it should be since a child is unable to defend itself in an adult world.  You view this from the wrong angle, its not about you.  Its about the kids.  If a parent wont protect them, who does that leave? > Or depend on the internal complaints procedure of a hostile intervening > organisation after the fact.

Why not?  Does ranting and raving here do more than following the right way to make a grievance heard? > The public perception of injustice in family courts is well founded.

Ignorance often leads to erroneous conclusions.  Of more people would pay attention to the purpose of the family court system then they would not only understand what’s happening but would agree with it. > Any professional lawyer will tell you about this legal sexism. > You can read it yoursef here on the web: www.terry.co.uk/men_div.htm

Again, thats outside the pervue of the news group.  Mad Dad’s have their own news group.  Take up the issue with them. > > The figures dont exist to support her claim, and greg knows it.  The > figures > > are not broken down that specifically.  They get to groups of reporters by > > employment, but not to relationship.  Thats why I asked him to provide > some > > form of support, I knew that it did not exist. > Since you know that the figures do not exist, you also know that the > caseworker would on her own not be able to substantiate her claim with such > figures.

DOH, now you are getting it. > However, she works with these cases all the time, so her word based on her > experience is to me really quite credible.

She is one of 27,000+ caseworkers around the nation.  She works in a very small state (population wise), in a single community.  Her experience is limited.  Very limited.  She does not and cannot speak for anything outside that experience.  But greg thinks she can, and does.  This is the traditional tactic of the "anti-CPS" mob, they take a single incident or individual and apply what is being said or what has occured to the entire system, as a whole.  Its not logical, its not accurate, but it IS sensationalist, and thats what they want.  The hell with accuracy and logic, what they want is the big headline. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > As for disputing credibility of statistics, that works both ways: An > > > organisation that depends on justifying it’s work to get government > > funding > > > isn’t going to be any more honest than it’s victims. The main thing is > > that > > > their intervention must be justified… and not the other way round. > > That’s a sad outlook.  Funding is indeed important, but what specific > > individual benefits from falsification?  Answer:  None. > Answer: All the people working there justify their continued employment, and > state funded index linked pensions and nobody gets blamed for the mistakes > they have covered up,not to mention all the nepotism, little frauds, bribes > and corruption that could go on behind the facade of doing good in the > community. > My outlook may be sad, but it is not naive!

Oh, not naive?  The average caseworker makes about $31,000 per year.  Thats about 18,000 pounds.  While this is a "living wage", in most parts of this country it is not comfortable.  In Britan it would cover one’s parking tickets, and maybe a tea now and again.  It often requires the worker to have a second job.  As for "continued employment", caseworkers are leaving this employment in droves.  Not because of frauds, or bribes, or accountability, but because of low pay, long hours, massive caseloads, and the general low life individuals they are required to associate with as service providers.  They do what good they can, and trust to god for the rest. > > Funding is a part of the vehicle needed to providing services.  An > > absolutely necessary part.  But the anti-CPS mob would have us believe > that > > it is the only driving factor in the entire system.  There has even been a > > poster here who stated that CPS workers drive around neighborhoods looking > > for kids to snatch so that they could line their own pockets with the > > funding received for the care of these children. > There may have been such cases, but  I doubt there are credible figures for > what percentage of children were actually "snatched off the streets".

There may have been, but no one has ever been able to present any credible evidence to back the claims. > > As I said earlier, the authorities here in the USA justify those > > interventions, in front of a court, in each and every case.  Without > > exception.  I have said this many times over the years.  Of course the > > argument from there degenerates to "they are all lining their pockets, its > a > > conspiracy". > There is plenty of evidence of pocket lining within the legal system.

Here they prosecute indiviudals doing this.  Or at the very least remove them from their positions in discrace. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You can bet wherever there is a system there is someone trying to profit > from

… read more »

Response:

On 11 Dec 2003 14:44:08 -0800, Gree…@hotmail.com (Greg Hanson) wrote: >cortney wrote >> Greg, I gather, is pro-spanking. >Yes, though that is a label that poorly fits.

Bullshit. You are a dedicated punisher. All anyone has to do is read your posts. >More correctly I am just against propagandists >or government removing that option from parents >choices.  

You would be. And thousands of parents making that choice every year injure children, some by ignorance, and some by escalation when it doesn’t work. And some kill their children and claim they were just disciplining. If you truly wanted to ward government off from making laws against spanking (and in fact they have laws protecting it NOW) you’d not be a spanker and you’d be speaking against it, not excusing it. > In practice I spanked very rarely.

It only takes one lay per pregnancy, Greegor. There just isn’t a sure fire way to know which one will do it. Same with spanking. It only takes one spanking to injure…and it’s very hard to tell which one will do it…the first or the 20th. It’s playing russian roulette with a human’s body, a child’s. >> I do not agree with that as I think there >> are always better alternatives, however I >> doubt Greg is pro-child abuse, >True,

A true lie. >Subject to disagreements where zealots >want to label darned near EVERYTHING is >child abuse!

Misreading, misunderstanding, deliberately lying about the facts. There are NO zealots anywhere wanting to label darned near EVERYTHING as child abuse. I label all punishment as pointless, not abusive. Counterproductive to learning, and only in that it interfers with the child’s learning is it abusive. Ignorance, such as yours, is no excuse for abuse, however. There are literally thousands of things, little decisions and actions a parent can to to teach and support a child’s development without once deliberately punish her. >> he might even respect my non-spanking >> approach even though he himself does not >> agree with it. >Yes, As long as that is your CHOICE and not >something imposed upon you by fear of the >state calling you a child abuser.

Abusers loooooove to hear such talk. The can whale away with the secure knowledge that somewhere some fool agrees with them. Hence, you are giving permission for them to gamble with the child’s safety. Let me put it this way. You are anti social, and that’s the kindest way I can state it. >I would also object to sweeping generalizations >based on incorrect information, used by >zealots to badmouth spanking as a last resort.

Studies over years by leading reseacher, peer reviewed with high marks by all but the few pro spankers that make a career of making asses of themselves by their bogus arguments? Many studies that came out in favor on NON punitive parent were done by people that themselves began believing that spanking would show itself to be effective. They were stunned when the opposite results showed. Spanking create problems where their were none. Non spanking disciplines created more compliance and over all, reductions in anti social behavior. >Parents should never say never.

Yeah, hang on to the spanking ethic until the world destroys itself through the reactionary responses of the spanked. Our jails are full of such people and if only we can make spanking more respectible we can let them out to run the world. And a few of them are already running the world. >And should never be coopted into that.

Babble, weasel, dodging and weaving and unwilling to take a firm stand for what is touted as a respectable defensible practice. It’s amazing how shy you brutes are when it comes to actually standing up for your practice. You know the truth, but you hate the truth. Kane

Response:

LaVonne wrote > Of course, it’s doubtful that this would have > helped your case.  Sexual molestation of children > is not that well tolerated by even the most > overworked, underpaid, and undereducated CPS worker.

LaVonne, This is quite interesting since nowhere in my families case has sexual molestation been an issue.  In fact, one of OUR biggest issues is that a CPS caseworker fabricated a ""Sex Abuse History"" for me and attested to this falsehood in an affidavit to court.

Response:

Chris, I really liked your website.  You look like a really good, concerned and caring father.  The photos are excellent.  I may have been unfair to you in my previous posts, but I am posting from alt.parenting.spanking and this is a ng that was created to discuss spanking and alternative strategies for raising and disciplining children. LaVonne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ChrisScaife wrote: > Thought I might add: > I’ve just done a sort of relevant web page… > http://www.MyKid2.org/DadsHoliday.html

Response:

"LaVonne Carlson" <carls…@umn.edu> wrote in message

news:3FD90347.FC12DD69@umn.edu… > Greg, > I read the article from the website you posted.  There was nothing that > supported your statement that "This is not unique to L.A."  In fact there > was a lot in this article that refuted your claims below.

Greg rarely reads what he posts. And if someone points out, as you did, that the article he posted is in opposition to what he claims it says… well that never bothered him before. > I suspect you think this "is not unique to L.A." because you ran into > problems with CPS and assume this ridiculous generalization of yours is > correct.

Greg is filled with ridiculous generalizations. It’s amazing that he’s so full of shit at the same time. > The article also discusses overworked employees who are more likely to > make mistakes.  Instead of railing against CPS, why not vote for better > CPS funding that would allow for better educated CPS workers with lower > caseloads?

The problem with CPS is the management. They’re funding driven… and the CWs, if they want to keep their jobs, do what their supervisors tell them to do. Want to fix CPS? Let someone run it who cares about the best interest of the kids and NOT the sound of a cash register goin CA-CHING!!! Their workload would be cut in half at the minimum. > Of course, it’s doubtful that this would have helped your case.  Sexual > molestation of children is not that well tolerated by even the most > overworked, underpaid, and undereducated CPS worker.

Sometimes CPS does get it right. Hey LaVonne, want to read something funny that Greg was responsible for? He claims that his girlfriend wrote it with his assistance but you’ll see it’s all Greg. Ya better sit yerself down on a couple of towels. Yer gonna pee yerself. This is REAL!!! Submitted to the Fam Ct Judge who’s handling his girlfriend’s daughter’s custody case. From: Greg Hanson (Gree…@hotmail.com) Subject: Motion for Relief from Inappropriate Services Newsgroups: alt.support.child-protective-services Date: 2002-04-09 14:27:36 PST IN THE IOWA DISTRICT COURT OF LINN COUNTY                               JUVENILE DIVISION IN THE INTEREST OF   NO. JVJV-12345 CHILD A. LASTNAME DOB: 00-00-99    MOTION TO CLARIFY MINOR CHILD    MOTION FOR RELIEF FROM      INAPPROPRIATE SERVICES COMES NOW,  Suzy Q. Mother, Pro Se, seeking relief from inappropriate and inquisitive services. The Iowa Department of Human Services (DHS) has IMPOSED a Service Plan onto us rather than allowing us ACTIVE participation in the FORMATION of the Service Plan.  We have complained about this for MOST of the last 11 months, and have been laughed off by Judas of DHS, Deb of LSS and ignored by Juvenile Court.   Greg showed the quote from the US DHHS Caseworker handbook to Deb, outside of our house, using the trunk of the car as a work surface.   We have seen no sign that she passed this information to Judas.   Deb characterized this in writing as if it was aberrant behavior and avoidance of personal issues.  Judas has been informed of this by way of SEVERAL documents, yet shown no sign of truly understanding their significance.  The Iowa DHS computer blank FORM was apparently recently modified to make a clear statement about this point, with boxed in text for emphasis, so it must be important to SOMEBODY at DHS, perhaps due to a consent decree. On January 99th, in court, I (Suzy Q. Mother) was asked by the judge what MORE services would help, but got the "stone wall" treatment regarding removal of inappropriate services.  It clearly seemed to be a "closed issue" with the Judge.  Something is wrong with that.  This flies in the face of the concept of "Active Participation in the Formation of Service Plan".  Federal Case law says "opportunity to object after formation is NOT a substitute for ACTIVE participation in the FORMATION of the Service Plan."  This is a Federal regulation and it’s in the Iowa caseworker manual too. Services DHS is attempting to IMPOSE upon our family turned out upon further investigation to be contaminated beyond belief with putrid INPUT.  The words "fishing expedition" come to mind. Domestic Violence Victim Counseling Never mind that there has been no Domestic Violence in the 3 years that Greg has been with us.  Domestic Violence counselor pushed for disclosure of some dark truth that simply doesn’t exist.  After Judas’s telephonic INPUT, the counselor, Linda Vance, badgered me saying "You know that Greg pushed Child’s head under water." (Actually it was head under SHOWER SPRAY!  twisted by DHS.)  It was clear after only a few minutes on the phone that she intended to assume the role of Torquemada (Spanish Inquisition) to elicit information about nonexistant domestic abuse. Psychological Evaluation Greg went to see Doctor DHSISGOODFORME for one hour, for a Psychological Evaluation, knowing what had been INPUT was a laundry list of 4 points.  The list was: needs to be the victim domestic violence controlling anger management issues It seemed odd that 10 hours were set aside with the scheduler for anger management before there was even a diagnosis.  The list raised some concerns about violations of 5th amendment rights, but it was small enough that Greg went.  Then after one hour, Dr.DHSISGOODFORME didn’t think he had enough to "go on" and asked for a release to get more documentary background from DHS.  This took 2 or three months, and this INPUT was an inch thick stack of documents, including misstatements, perjury and parroted comments like "it is reported" presented as de-facto evidence.   We STILL have not gotten the huge number of factual, typographical, non-sequitir and other incorrect statements stricken from the records.  The time will come for this. The "laundry list" four points were not all present in the STACK of input, and new, more attitudinal and subjective concerns were added.  There are definate problems of EPISTEMOLOGY with this. Greg called up Dr.DHSISGOODFORME and asked about the ethics of using such a large amount of INPUT and the potential for it to TAINT the impartiality of a Psychological Evaluation.   Dr. DHSISGOODFORME could not explain how this INPUT would not creep into the subjective parts of the Psychological Evaluation.  Greg asked about how the hypotheticals about behavior in a family setting posed in the INPUT could be evaluated outside of the family setting.   Not many answers were forthcoming, and Greg clearly felt like he was being "railroaded" by the stacked" Psychological Evaluation.  Several large issues in The Bill of Rights jelled at this point. ( 4, 5, 6, 9 and 14) Sex Abuse Exam Done based only on DHS Perjury Child had already undergone a sex abuse physical and a video tape interview at the CPC, despite the fact that NOBODY, not even the hostile accuser had alleged any sexual abuse.  The only justification for the sex abuse physical was PERJURY by Judas of DHS about Greg’s past.   This same PERJURY was used at the top of Judas and Maggie’s Affidavit to justify the court removal order after two weeks of extortive "Family Preservation" used purely as witch hunt. My first idiot attorney supposedly filed a motion for a HEARING about the CPC exam, because justification was based on false and even perjurous information.   The motion was denied by a Juvenile Court Judge with no explanation. The CPC physical reported the grandmothers concerns, and reported an internal bump that had gone away, IF it ever really existed.  The bump was reported as being from a swing set accident.  We never owned a swing set, and this injury was apparently concealed from us IF it really ever existed.  We have concerns that Child may have been brainwashed into not reporting an accident that took place on the grandparents’ swing set.  The grandmother was never authorized to intrude into Child’s medical care in any way, yet her words are written down there in the physical report, and they are non-sequiturs.  This woman has been on Prozac for 8 (EIGHT) years and does not take her Prozac reliably, which is particularly risky.  Great and reliable witness eh?  A mental case?  (Has Wallis vs. Escondido or Spencer written all over it!) The video tape interview was done by Jennifer Torquemada (Now Jennifer Blah) at the CPC, even though she apparently had NO CERTIFICATION for her job as an Evidenciary Interviewer.   If she did, she would know more about how suggestable a 7 year old is, and how unreliable their testimony is.   This is where "head pushed under water" began rather than "head pushed under shower spray". Jennifer also directed me to cooperate with DHS, and said that I "would have to make some tough choices" implying that I needed to get rid of Greg to satisfy DHS. She reported a lot of information that SHE did not gather.  Hyperbole like "It is reported that" (blah blah) is used several times in her report.  This is clearly an artifact of her interaction with the other members of the "Child Protection Team", specifically the DHS Child Protective caseworkers.  This contaminates the neutrality, and adds a bogus aire of legitimacy to fictitious and factitious garbage. Maggie Wickedwitch even fed Jennifer questions to ask from the other side of the one way glass. I (Suzy Q. Mother) was denied my right to have legal counsel present at questioning that took place there.   My first idiot attorney said he would not be allowed, which I know was not true.  I went there specifically to hold my 7 year old daughters’ hand through the invasive sex abuse physical.   Instead I was fending off an "ambush interview" by a hostile group during that time. Employment The Service Plan directs Greg to find employment.  There has been no explanation or justification of this.  We consider this to be up to us jointly, as a family, and object to being micromanaged by busybodies at DHS who have no RIGHT to direct, order or extort such a thing. Maggie, Judas, et alia seem to have a bias … read more »

Response:

"LaVonne Carlson" <carls…@umn.edu> wrote in message

news:3FD9055F.49B6E74F@umn.edu… > ChrisScaife wrote: > > Sadly it is exactly what I expected. > > The whole system seems to revolve around money as any divorced dad will have > > become painfully aware of. > The system involves money, Chris.  It takes money to raise children.  It takes > money to house children.

When asked by the judge why she was suing for residency my ex’s solicitor actually admitted that they would not discuss financial setlement until they had a residence order in their favour… (yes I have got the court transcript). I wanted a shared parenting arangement especially since I had given up my job and moved back to the UK so I could see DS… more than once a fortnight. Money is the wrong motivation. It takes love to care for children. If I thought my ex and her man loved my child I could live with that. > > Nobody cares about the welfare of the children. > > IMHO Especially lawyers really can’t give a stuff as long as it’s > > profitable. > Lawyers make a lot of money.  And the individual with the most money often gets > the best lawyer.  This is unfortunate, but I thought this was thread was about > child protection.

Granted I’m not quite on the right thread. The reason I replied is because the article quoted money as the motivator. It should be what is best for the child. Also my ex and her boyfriend administer CP that I do not agree with, but when I try to protest they turn it round and accuse me! The system seems very happy to listen to their accusations but makes out I’m just a disgruntled father trying to get revenge or something.. DS said to me: Tony grabbed me by the troat he shouted you will do as you are told. He dug his long nails into my neck (points to marks). The veins on his nose went purple and swelled up even more than usual…. Social services said to me: He put his hands on the boys shoulders to calm him down. You have to stop criticising them. Perhaps I’m going mad ?! But if child protection works the same way, God help the children because nobody else is going to. > People do care about the welfare of children.  And individuals who father > children should be equally responsible for their expenses as should the mother, > who often receives physical custody.  Make babies, pay for those babies, > Chris.  This is true wherever they may live.

I have no objection to supporting my son. Admittedly I would like to have some say in whether my money gets spent on mummies cigarettes and wine or on new shoes for DS. (When I last took DS  out for a walk he had no shoes and I had to go buy some first). In any case it’s not my issue. To the law, DX and defacto may seem a satisfactory family environment and I am redundant. As far as this thread is concerned, It would not surprise me if there are many cases where it was not necessary to remove the kids from their parent’s care and they are no better off in the foster home. It is very worrying if $30000+ per child is at stake. Money is evil. Honestly, IMHO there should be an independent check for whom the financial incentive is to keep the children *with* their parents. > > Still it’s good to see that the media are making joe public aware of it. > > Real people do care once they know… > The media website in Greg’s post was about child abuse and foster care. Is > child removal for allegations of abuse your issue?  Or is your issue paying > child support to children to you created who are now living with their > biological mother?

My real issue is: I want quality parenting time too. Allegations of child abuse is a very powerful mechanism to gain control. I do not trust the system to be fair and have been given no reason to change that opinion. (Note: according to www.equalparenting.org  the UK is 20 years behind on the US, so if over there you think it’s not that bad, you could be right! However, there are still many US dads who feel they too have been victims of injustice…) Anyway my beer has run out, the sky is blue and the sea becons… Am I glad I’m not in the UK right now  Cheers, Chris

Response:

ChrisScaife wrote: > Sadly it is exactly what I expected. > The whole system seems to revolve around money as any divorced dad will have > become painfully aware of.

The system involves money, Chris.  It takes money to raise children.  It takes money to house children. > Nobody cares about the welfare of the children. > IMHO Especially lawyers really can’t give a stuff as long as it’s > profitable.

Lawyers make a lot of money.  And the individual with the most money often gets the best lawyer.  This is unfortunate, but I thought this was thread was about child protection. People do care about the welfare of children.  And individuals who father children should be equally responsible for their expenses as should the mother, who often receives physical custody.  Make babies, pay for those babies, Chris.  This is true wherever they may live. > Still it’s good to see that the media are making joe public aware of it. > Real people do care once they know…

The media website in Greg’s post was about child abuse and foster care.  Is child removal for allegations of abuse your issue?  Or is your issue paying child support to children to you created who are now living with their biological mother? LaVonne

Response:

Greg, I read the article from the website you posted.  There was nothing that supported your statement that "This is not unique to L.A."  In fact there was a lot in this article that refuted your claims below. I suspect you think this "is not unique to L.A." because you ran into problems with CPS and assume this ridiculous generalization of yours is correct. The article also discusses overworked employees who are more likely to make mistakes.  Instead of railing against CPS, why not vote for better CPS funding that would allow for better educated CPS workers with lower caseloads? Of course, it’s doubtful that this would have helped your case.  Sexual molestation of children is not that well tolerated by even the most overworked, underpaid, and undereducated CPS worker. LaVonne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Greg Hanson wrote: > This is not unique to L.A.  Not at all. > Last week a story was posted from Arizona where > a CASEWORKER acknowledged that half of all reports > of abuse there are from grandparents who "don’t like > the way the grandkids are being raised". > (IE. Second Guessing parents for non-ABUSE reasons.) > http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/news/120703_nw_fostor_probe.html > Up to Half of Fostor Children Needlessly Placed in System > LOS ANGELES (CNS)

Governor's double standard: Fail a school, pass DCF

Question:

Governor’s double standard: Fail a school, pass DCF December 19, 2002 If a Florida school scored less than 75 percent on Gov. Jeb Bush’s favored A Plus program, it would be tagged a "failing" school, qualifying its students for vouchers so they could move away. So, why is the governor pleased that another of his favored programs, Operation Safekids, has found only 305 out of 393 missing children assigned to the care of the state Department of Children and Families? Bush started Operation Safekids in August, ordering DCF and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to find the children missing from state care, most of whom are believed to be runaways or taken by a noncustodial relative. Actually, the statistics are even worse than they already look. Since the 393 DCF children were identified as missing in August, another 423 children "came up" missing. Of those, 211 still haven’t been found. Nevertheless, in a statement released Tuesday to the Associated Press, Bush called Operation Safekids a success, saying that in addition to locating "most" of the missing children, it improved communication between DCF and law enforcement agencies. Operation Safekids "has helped to establish a system that will better protect the children in our state," Bush said. Problems at DCF surfaced with the revelation in April that 5-year-old Rilya Wilson of Miami was missing for 15 months before DCF realized she was gone. And she still hasn’t been found. Nor has anyone a clue as to where she might be. In another case, the body of a 17-year-old in DCF’s care was found in a canal in Collier County. She had been shot to death. When the governor first was elected, he promised to turn DCF around and provide real care for the troubled young people. Now, more than four years later, the department seems as troubled as ever. It has a new director, Jerry Regier, who no doubt is working hard to make a difference. But, even though he’s replaced eight of DCF’s top officials, there’s no sign of a new funding proposal from the governor or a concrete plan to help the state’s overburdened, undertrained workers deal with everyday tragedy. If Bush thinks Safekids is a success, he might want to look at the numbers again 299 missing children. Perhaps then he would consider issuing vouchers to Florida children in trouble. Then they could go to another state where they might receive more attentive care.   http://www.tcpalm.com/tcp/the_news_editorials/article/0,1651,TCP_1033… Barbara has one of the best web site for foster parents at http://www.fosterparents.com/ Barbara has all kind of info for foster parents from online training to a chat room there is also a page with links to  with your state agency. http://www.fosterparenting.com/   There also great info on http://www.fosterclub.com/grownups/index.html You can get tons of support/information here. http://www.kuddlekids.com/ There is also a web ring for foster parents if you go to  http://o.webring.com/webring?ring=fostercarering;list there is a list of sites in ring You can do a net search using http://www.yahoo.com/ http://www.google.com/ You can go to http://www.copernic.com/  and get Copernic 2001 basic for free, it will search  obtain fast, relevant results from the greatest number of information sources 18 and categories available on the Internet!

Response:

Wex, apparently the fix is in. Since CPS has LOADS OF UNDOCUMENTED MONIES—they can claim all manner of interventions. Schools have somewhat more oversight with local school boards, etc. And lots of undercover donations to CPS and kickbacks to politicos. DESCRIPTORS; FBI, GAO, AUDIT,MEDICARE, MEDICAID,FRAUD, WHISTLEBLOWER, QUI TAM LAWSUIT, DEPARTMENT OF CHILDREN AND FAMILIES, ACCOUNTANCY, WHITE COLLAR CRIME, CORRUPTION, OFFICIAL CORRUPTION, FAMILY COURT, SOCIAL WORK, FLORIDA, CPS, CHILD PROTECTIVE, EMBEZZLEMENT. Wex discerned: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Subject: Governor’s double standard: Fail a school, pass DCF >From: Wex Wimpy wexwi…@citicom.com >Date: 12/20/2002 10:31 AM Eastern Standard Time >Message-id: <1ud60vs25oo5phtkeuns7ikasvn6qsi…@4ax.com> >Governor’s double standard: Fail a school, pass DCF >December 19, 2002 >If a Florida school scored less than 75 percent on Gov. Jeb Bush’s >favored A Plus program, it would be tagged a "failing" school, >qualifying its students for vouchers so they could move away. So, why >is the governor pleased that another of his favored programs, >Operation Safekids, has found only 305 out of 393 missing children >assigned to the care of the state Department of Children and Families? >Bush started Operation Safekids in August, ordering DCF and the >Florida Department of Law Enforcement to find the children missing >from state care, most of whom are believed to be runaways or taken by >a noncustodial relative. >Actually, the statistics are even worse than they already look. Since >the 393 DCF children were identified as missing in August, another 423 >children "came up" missing. Of those, 211 still haven’t been found. >Nevertheless, in a statement released Tuesday to the Associated Press, >Bush called Operation Safekids a success, saying that in addition to >locating "most" of the missing children, it improved communication >between DCF and law enforcement agencies. >Operation Safekids "has helped to establish a system that will better >protect the children in our state," Bush said. >Problems at DCF surfaced with the revelation in April that 5-year-old >Rilya Wilson of Miami was missing for 15 months before DCF realized >she was gone. And she still hasn’t been found. Nor has anyone a clue >as to where she might be. In another case, the body of a 17-year-old >in DCF’s care was found in a canal in Collier County. She had been >shot to death. >When the governor first was elected, he promised to turn DCF around >and provide real care for the troubled young people. Now, more than >four years later, the department seems as troubled as ever. It has a >new director, Jerry Regier, who no doubt is working hard to make a >difference. But, even though he’s replaced eight of DCF’s top >officials, there’s no sign of a new funding proposal from the governor >or a concrete plan to help the state’s overburdened, undertrained >workers deal with everyday tragedy. >If Bush thinks Safekids is a success, he might want to look at the >numbers again 299 missing children. Perhaps then he would consider >issuing vouchers to Florida children in trouble. Then they could go to >another state where they might receive more attentive care.   >http://www.tcpalm.com/tcp/the_news_editorials/article/0,1651,TCP_1033… 9245,00.html >Barbara has one of the best web site for foster parents at >http://www.fosterparents.com/ >Barbara has all kind of info for foster parents from online training to a >chat room there is also a page with links to  with your state agency. >http://www.fosterparenting.com/   >There also great info on http://www.fosterclub.com/grownups/index.html >You can get tons of support/information here. http://www.kuddlekids.com/ >There is also a web ring for foster parents if you go to >http://o.webring.com/webring?ring=fostercarering;list >there is a list of sites in ring >You can do a net search using >http://www.yahoo.com/ >http://www.google.com/ >You can go to http://www.copernic.com/  and get >Copernic 2001 basic for free, it will search  obtain fast, relevant results >from the greatest number of information sources 18 and categories available >on the Internet!

Response:

Newborn Snatched By DSS

Question:

This and all other stories should be forwarded to ABCnews.com for 20/20 so maybe there is enough of this someone will look at the true abusers are. Also a written complaint mailed to Secretary Donna Shalala U.S Dept of Health and Human services 200 Independence avS.W. room 639c Washington,DC20201 I have sent every documented paper I have had sense my daughter was placed with us,before we adopted her.They ask if we can prove it,YOU BET. Kate

Response:

Just so you know Donna Shalala is not Helath and Human Secrataries anymore.  It is The former governor of Wisconsin TOmmy Thompson, have no idea what the address is jsut so you know. Also a written complaint mailed to Secretary Donna Shalala U.S Dept of Health and Human services 200 Independence avS.W. room 639c Washington,DC20201

Response:

>These people at DSS don’t have any idea how to respect the due >process rights of parents. Consequently they go past the limits they’re >allowed under the law. That’s wh

DUE PROCESS and CPS? (Oxymoron?) Http://www.massnews.com Justice4Families Barnstable, MA

Response:

Jamie wrote: > Newborn Snatched By DSS From Parents Who Were In Hiding > Mother and Father Shackled in Lowell For Not Handing Over Infant > By Ed Oliver > February 13, 2001 > The parents of a two-month-old girl were arrested for contempt yesterday at > Lowell District Court after they refused to disclose the location of their > baby to DSS which was seeking to take the infant from them.

Yeah… why should they not comply, huh?  Shackles?  They should get MEDALS! (and those kidnapping the child should get a bullet in the back of the head) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Neil and Heidi Howard sat shackled in a holding cell for several hours > yesterday. They were released after their baby girl was located by DSS at > the home of their pastor. Social workers took the baby away and DSS now has > custody of all three of their children. > Neil Howard told Massachusetts News, "The contempt charge would have been > thirty days, we were willing, of course, to spend at least that long to > protect her." Heidi added, "We were willing to spend 18 years in jail to > protect our daughter." > The couple hid with their baby for two weeks at a friend’s apartment leading > up to yesterday’s developments. The mother told MassNews through her tears > that her baby needs her and she won’t be there for her. > The Howards haven’t had their day in court yet, according to their attorney > Greg Hession, even though it’s been over a year since DSS took the Howard’s > other two children.

Yup… HAVE NOT HAD A DAY IN COURT even though it has been OVER A YEAR. Extremely typical. Yet Gestapo CPS and the Child Abuse and Kidnapping Industry kidnap their infant. Typical. > They have two sons, Christopher, who is now 10-years-old, and Ethan who is > five. > Attorney Greg Hession, who handles DSS cases on a regular basis and is > aghast at what happens to good families at the hands of the agency, told > Mass News, "These people at DSS don’t have any idea how to respect the due > process rights of parents.

They have no idea because they simply hold the civil, constitutional, human, due process and parental rights of parents, children and families in extreme contempt. > Consequently they go past the limits they’re > allowed under the law. That’s what they did in this case, they’ve been doing > this for over a year now in this case."

And that is what they have done for the nearly three decades they have existed against millions of innocent families, parents and children every year. > DSS Noticed She Was No Longer Pregnant > Neil Howard explained to MassNews what happened in this most recent episode > with DSS. Shortly after a supervised visit with their sons, which he > explained occurs for one hour a month under strict rules such as no hugging > or sitting on laps, DSS noticed that Heidi was no longer pregnant. She must > have had her baby.

Wow… they at least have had a basic health class.  Dollars to doughnuts that was nearly the sum total of this kidnapping clown’s ‘training’ (aside from how to violate the law and the rights of innocent citizens). > DSS began calling the couple demanding they bring the infant to the DSS > office "to be viewed."

A lie, pure and simple… to be KIDNAPPED.  And the parents knew this… they are clearly not the cowed morons that Gestapo CPS considers all parents should be… I would have hidden my child too… with someone I could trust with orders to shoot to kill ANYONE who attempts to take the child. > If they did not comply, DSS would have to take what > they called appropriate measures.

Translation: Kidnap the child anyway. > They said it was very serious and they had concerns.

They ALWAYS have ‘concerns’.  They operate under a blanket anti-family and anti-parent paranoid delusion. > The Howards said they were extremely wary after the terrible > treatment their family had suffered so far at the hands of the social > service agency.

I wonder why THAT might be!  Go figure! > "We had already taken Jessica to a pediatrician, she already had been viewed > by a court-appointed GAL and a court-appointed doctor. She was thriving. The > doctor was thrilled. She was gaining weight and doing terrific. It was > evident from the DSS answering machine messages that they were going to take > the baby, so we decided to leave our home and stay with friends.

Should have sent the child out of the state.  But clearly there was absolutely no legitimate and credible reason to remove the child, but they kidnapped her anyway.  Typical Gestapo CPS… gotta keep violating the rights of families, parents and children, and gotta keep that money flowing.  The personal power trips are just a bonus apparently. > "We basically hid out with them for a couple of weeks. We heard through our > attorney that DSS was filing for custody based on nothing.

That defined about 99% of their filings. > They basically said because of past ‘abuse,’ which they still haven’t proven > to this day.

Of course.  They make a lying claim, which then because they made it becomes ‘fact’ in court, because you are never allowed to disprove it until you actually get into an actual court, which will usually take years, if ever… then even when you prove your innocence (which you should not even have to do since they have never bothered to credibly meet their burden of PROOF against you of guilt in the first place) they then say even though you are innocent the ‘children have bonded with the foster parents who want to adopt so we are seeking termination of parental rights anyway’. This is how Gestapo CPS and the Child Abuse and Kidnapping Industry operates. > They said they needed to take this newborn child. We hope someday to prove > there is absolutely no neglect or abuse in this family.

I hope someday they get their family back, and that these kidnappers, aiders, abettors, etc are all publicly executed for their crimes after more of a trial than they have given this innocent family. > "Today we came to court. They ordered us to produce the child. We refused. > We had already arranged with our pastor to take the child and place her > temporarily with people they trusted. We were then arrested and incarcerated > until they could somehow find the baby. They later told us they did manage to > take our baby from us, so now they have all of our children."

Standard abuse of power by Gestapo CPS and the Child Abuse and Kidnapping Industry. And of course they will use the fact that you care about your children enough to try and protect them from the abusive clutches of Gestapo CPS and the Child Abuse and Kidnapping Industry against you. > Taken from Pastor’s Home > Attorney Gregory Hession gave the office phone number of the pastor to the > court in hopes the Howards would not be jailed.

That attorney should be shot as well… such gross violation of his duty to his clients should not go without the most severe retribution. > Pastor Montel B. Wilder of Grace Baptist Church in Pepperell told MassNews > that instead of DSS calling him at his office as he expected, the social > workers went straight to his home with the police. The baby was still at > home with the pastor’s wife.

Thank you Mr Attorney… we all see now whose payroll YOU were on! > DSS told the wife they had a court order and were taking the child > immediately. She managed to stall them long enough to call her husband who > rushed home. > The pastor refused at first to hand over the child, telling DSS that the > parents entrusted the baby to him.

And of course the pastor and wife were now foster parents selected by the family… as such the child was not in the custody of the parents, and Gestapo CPS and the Child Abuse and Kidnapping Industry had nothing against the pastor and his wife… so where now was any justification for kidnapping the child? Nowhere.  Such simply did not exist.  Just like it clearly does not exist against the parents… they have had over a YEAR to justify any criminal charges of actual child abuse or criminal child neglect and have NOT DONE SO.  Yet they continue to hold the older two children hostage as leverage against the parents and now they also have kidnapped their infant. Ask any credible child psychologist about the long term trauma caused to a child when ripped from the family and parents at an early age where absolutely no actual abuse or criminal child neglect against the child by the parents has ever been substantiated. > The police, however, explained they had a court order and they would have to > take the baby. The pastor said he realized there wasn’t much he could do.

Not once the family was betrayed by ‘their attorney’. > Pastor Wilder said if DSS had called him at his office, he would not have > violated his parishioner’s confidentiality and would not have told them > where the baby was. > "It was just a beautiful baby," he said. "The little girl was in excellent > health. It looked fine. There was no way that baby was abused in any way."

Do the facts matter to the child rendering money machine that is Gestapo CPS and the Child Abuse and Kidnapping Industry?  Of course not! > He said the Howards seemed to be fine parents. He recounted how the mother > showed great concern that morning when she wrote out instructions for the > baby and made sure it had food, diapers, and that the Wilders knew what to > do when it burped and slept. "She wrote out everything for us."

Yup, such horribly abusive and neglectful parents, huh? > Attorney Hession commented, "DSS said they had a court order. But they > proceeded to ask for this child from these parents without ever verifying > the truth about the past allegations against the family first.

This is NEWS to you, Betrayer? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If the parents had the opportunity to actually have a hearing with > cross-examination and testimony under oath, which has never been afforded to > these parents yet in a year-and-a-half, they are confident they can disprove > these allegations. Therefore this child would

… read more »

Response:

Newborn Snatched By DSS From Parents Who Were In Hiding Mother and Father Shackled in Lowell For Not Handing Over Infant By Ed Oliver February 13, 2001 The parents of a two-month-old girl were arrested for contempt yesterday at Lowell District Court after they refused to disclose the location of their baby to DSS which was seeking to take the infant from them. Neil and Heidi Howard sat shackled in a holding cell for several hours yesterday. They were released after their baby girl was located by DSS at the home of their pastor. Social workers took the baby away and DSS now has custody of all three of their children. Neil Howard told Massachusetts News, "The contempt charge would have been thirty days, we were willing, of course, to spend at least that long to protect her." Heidi added, "We were willing to spend 18 years in jail to protect our daughter." The couple hid with their baby for two weeks at a friend’s apartment leading up to yesterday’s developments. The mother told MassNews through her tears that her baby needs her and she won’t be there for her. The Howards haven’t had their day in court yet, according to their attorney Greg Hession, even though it’s been over a year since DSS took the Howard’s other two children. They have two sons, Christopher, who is now 10-years-old, and Ethan who is five. Attorney Greg Hession, who handles DSS cases on a regular basis and is aghast at what happens to good families at the hands of the agency, told Mass News, "These people at DSS don’t have any idea how to respect the due process rights of parents. Consequently they go past the limits they’re allowed under the law. That’s what they did in this case, they’ve been doing this for over a year now in this case." DSS Noticed She Was No Longer Pregnant Neil Howard explained to MassNews what happened in this most recent episode with DSS. Shortly after a supervised visit with their sons, which he explained occurs for one hour a month under strict rules such as no hugging or sitting on laps, DSS noticed that Heidi was no longer pregnant. She must have had her baby. DSS began calling the couple demanding they bring the infant to the DSS office "to be viewed." If they did not comply, DSS would have to take what they called appropriate measures. They said it was very serious and they had concerns. The Howards said they were extremely wary after the terrible treatment their family had suffered so far at the hands of the social service agency. "We had already taken Jessica to a pediatrician, she already had been viewed by a court-appointed GAL and a court-appointed doctor. She was thriving. The doctor was thrilled. She was gaining weight and doing terrific. It was evident from the DSS answering machine messages that they were going to take the baby, so we decided to leave our home and stay with friends. "We basically hid out with them for a couple of weeks. We heard through our attorney that DSS was filing for custody based on nothing. They basically said because of past ‘abuse,’ which they still haven’t proven to this day. They said they needed to take this newborn child. We hope someday to prove there is absolutely no neglect or abuse in this family. "Today we came to court. They ordered us to produce the child. We refused. We had already arranged with our pastor to take the child and place her temporarily with people they trusted. We were then arrested and incarcerated until they could somehow find the baby. They later told us they did manage to take our baby from us, so now they have all of our children." Taken from Pastor’s Home Attorney Gregory Hession gave the office phone number of the pastor to the court in hopes the Howards would not be jailed. Pastor Montel B. Wilder of Grace Baptist Church in Pepperell told MassNews that instead of DSS calling him at his office as he expected, the social workers went straight to his home with the police. The baby was still at home with the pastor’s wife. DSS told the wife they had a court order and were taking the child immediately. She managed to stall them long enough to call her husband who rushed home. The pastor refused at first to hand over the child, telling DSS that the parents entrusted the baby to him. The police, however, explained they had a court order and they would have to take the baby. The pastor said he realized there wasn’t much he could do. Pastor Wilder said if DSS had called him at his office, he would not have violated his parishioner’s confidentiality and would not have told them where the baby was. "It was just a beautiful baby," he said. "The little girl was in excellent health. It looked fine. There was no way that baby was abused in any way." He said the Howards seemed to be fine parents. He recounted how the mother showed great concern that morning when she wrote out instructions for the baby and made sure it had food, diapers, and that the Wilders knew what to do when it burped and slept. "She wrote out everything for us." Attorney Hession commented, "DSS said they had a court order. But they proceeded to ask for this child from these parents without ever verifying the truth about the past allegations against the family first. If the parents had the opportunity to actually have a hearing with cross-examination and testimony under oath, which has never been afforded to these parents yet in a year-and-a-half, they are confident they can disprove these allegations. Therefore this child would not have had to have been ripped away from its parents. So the problem is due process. All these cases, the problem is due process. "They refuse to respect our constitutional system which gives a presumption that something isn’t true unless there is actual proof and an opportunity to be heard and an opportunity to cross examine witnesses." The Howards and their attorney met with MassNews months ago with DSS records and other documentation to tell the details of their story, which will be covered in a separate article. They appear to be a loving couple who are distraught over the loss of their children. — http://www.geocities.com/stella_777_99

Response:

expunged arrest serving as disqualifier for foster/adoptive parents

Question:

Steve wrote: > If I remember correctly, the original poster did not specify the > charge as you stated.  If he/she was acquited would  that matter?  I am > assuming that the poster is not listed on his state registry of child > abusers.

Well, that listing is, to me, the greatest of frauds, since it lists everyone even ACCUSED of such, even though over 90% of such accuration are found to be UNFOUNDED.  In such a case listing such a person is, TO ME, a criminal act itself! But what I specified was as an example.  The issue is that the conviction was expunged… nothing was said the person was not in fact guilty… and I just wanted to see if there was the double standard I have found to exist… where parents lose their kids for FAR LESS than foster parents get away with routinely! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 23:54:22 GMT, Neal Feldman <silverst…@home.net> > wrote: > >My question is:  If the BIOLOGICAL PARENTS had such a record, would that, > >to you, be reason to kidnap their children from them? > >If you answer in the affirmative then you should just as consistently > >disqualify anyone with such from being a foster parent. > >Me?  I personally care more about what they are like NOW than what they > >may or may not have done 10 years ago.  Also you did not specify what the > >charge was… child sexual molestation or DUII? > >me wrote: > >> Good afternoon, > >> My question is what part an old arrest (over 10 years) which has been > >> expunged would play in the licensing process.  The charges were > >> serious, but there was no conviction, and the arrest has been legally > >> expunged and the record sealed. > >> Does anyone have any experience with dealing with this issue? > >> Thanks in advance. > >– > >============================================================= > >Home Page: http://members.home.net/silverstorm/ > >We will never rest until Gestapo CPS is completely abolished!

Response:

Good afternoon, My question is what part an old arrest (over 10 years) which has been expunged would play in the licensing process.  The charges were serious, but there was no conviction, and the arrest has been legally expunged and the record sealed.   Does anyone have any experience with dealing with this issue? Thanks in advance.

Response:

My question is:  If the BIOLOGICAL PARENTS had such a record, would that, to you, be reason to kidnap their children from them? If you answer in the affirmative then you should just as consistently disqualify anyone with such from being a foster parent. Me?  I personally care more about what they are like NOW than what they may or may not have done 10 years ago.  Also you did not specify what the charge was… child sexual molestation or DUII? me wrote: > Good afternoon, > My question is what part an old arrest (over 10 years) which has been > expunged would play in the licensing process.  The charges were > serious, but there was no conviction, and the arrest has been legally > expunged and the record sealed. > Does anyone have any experience with dealing with this issue? > Thanks in advance.

– ============================================================= Home Page: http://members.home.net/silverstorm/ We will never rest until Gestapo CPS is completely abolished!

Response:

If I remember correctly, the original poster did not specify the charge as you stated.  If he/she was acquited would that matter?  I am assuming that the poster is not listed on his state registry of child abusers. On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 23:54:22 GMT, Neal Feldman <silverst…@home.net> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->My question is:  If the BIOLOGICAL PARENTS had such a record, would that, >to you, be reason to kidnap their children from them? >If you answer in the affirmative then you should just as consistently >disqualify anyone with such from being a foster parent. >Me?  I personally care more about what they are like NOW than what they >may or may not have done 10 years ago.  Also you did not specify what the >charge was… child sexual molestation or DUII? >me wrote: >> Good afternoon, >> My question is what part an old arrest (over 10 years) which has been >> expunged would play in the licensing process.  The charges were >> serious, but there was no conviction, and the arrest has been legally >> expunged and the record sealed. >> Does anyone have any experience with dealing with this issue? >> Thanks in advance. >– >============================================================= >Home Page: http://members.home.net/silverstorm/ >We will never rest until Gestapo CPS is completely abolished!

Response:

The Failing system…

Question:

Amy:   I agree the foster  care system does at times fail to meet the needs of the children, I don’t buy the excuse the case workers are over worked, As a foster parent I notify the worker of any problems the child has, I feel we need more resources for the foster parents, More training and perhaps more of a say so in court. In my state a child was killed because a hrs workers did not communicate with each other,I have been very lucky to have children who are new to the system and had families who got their act together so thay could be a family again , But this was due to adesire on the parents part to want to change the system did very little to help them.

Response:

Bob- From: Alaska9…@aol.com Please read and pass on this information. We can make a difference. Every foster parent needs to help this program be the "whole story." Honoring Adoptive and Foster Parents Were you raised by adoptive or foster parents who have made a positive difference in your life? Do you have a special or unusual story about how you came into their lives? Have your adoptive or foster parents taught you any valuable life lessons that you’d like to share? The Oprah Show is working on an upcoming show that will honor outstanding adoptive and foster parents. If you have a heartwarming story about an adoptive or foster parent who has done a remarkable job raising their children, please tell us about it! Or, if you were raised by another person or have a special parent-figure or mentor who is not biologically connected to you, we’d like to hear your story. We’re also looking for people who are considering adoption and have questions and concerns, so we’d love to hear from you too! Please be sure to include your day and night phone numbers. We look forward to reading your story. Fill out the form at this site or e-mail her at em…@oprah.com. Story to tell and being on the Oprah Show: Please go to: http://oprah.com/show/be_on_the_show/foster.html#form Also, we are organizing a fosterparent support e-mail group if you’d be interested. There are members from different states, Canada and the UK. Thanks in advance for your support. -Sami

Response:

From: Alaska9…@aol.com Please read and pass on this information. We can make a difference. Every foster parent needs to help this program be the "whole story." Honoring Adoptive and Foster Parents Were you raised by adoptive or foster parents who have made a positive difference in your life? Do you have a special or unusual story about how you came into their lives? Have your adoptive or foster parents taught you any valuable life lessons that you’d like to share? The Oprah Show is working on an upcoming show that will honor outstanding adoptive and foster parents. If you have a heartwarming story about an adoptive or foster parent who has done a remarkable job raising their children, please tell us about it! Or, if you were raised by another person or have a special parent-figure or mentor who is not biologically connected to you, we’d like to hear your story. We’re also looking for people who are considering adoption and have questions and concerns, so we’d love to hear from you too! Please be sure to include your day and night phone numbers. We look forward to reading your story. Fill out the form at this site or e-mail her at em…@oprah.com. Story to tell and being on the Oprah Show: Please go to: http://oprah.com/show/be_on_the_show/foster.html#form Thanks for you support -Sami

Response:

    I have had both good and bad experiences with the "system".  I have to hand it to the worker that we had with last foster child.  She recognized that he needed special help and obtained it as fast as she possibly could considering how difficult it can be with all the paper work that needs to be done.     I would like to know if there is such a thing as CASA in New York State? If so how can I find our who it is for our two foster sons. Thanks in advance.

Response:

try this website: www.nationalcasa.org You can access info about casa in all of the states here.  That is how I found ours.  Good Luck! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Sheila LaBombard wrote in message … >    I have had both good and bad experiences with the "system".  I have to >hand it to the worker that we had with last foster child.  She recognized >that he needed special help and obtained it as fast as she possibly could >considering how difficult it can be with all the paper work that needs to be >done. >    I would like to know if there is such a thing as CASA in New York State? >If so how can I find our who it is for our two foster sons. >Thanks in advance.

Response:

From what I see in Tennessee, the first goal here is always reunification. Sometimes the child is left without representation.  I know that there are casa (court appointed special advocates) in most states and their main concern is what is best for the child.  I highly recommend getting a casa volunteer for your foster children, so their best interests will be represented.  My casa person told me that there are laws here on the books from 1997 that dhs hasn’t even been trained on and most of them have to do with children’s and foster parents’ rights.  I start my casa training at the end of this month.  I know exactly how you feel and your concerns are valid. I am just trying to arm myself with as much info as possible.  It helps  me not to feel so powerless over the system. Heather     Amy Hibbard wrote in message <9393-36E733F…@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net>…     I would like to know if there are any foster parents who feel that the     system fails the child……We have had nothing but bad experiences

Response:

The failing might be partly yours. You have the final say in which children are brought into your  home. If a child seems to have behaviour problem that you are not in a position to handle, then say so. If the failing is with the social workers… then that’s harder to rectify. We’ve had some "not-so-happy" goodbyes, but we shouldn’t forget the happy times and the difference that you have made in that child’s life… even if it was a short period. Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Amy Hibbard wrote: > I would like to know if there are any foster parents who feel that the > system fails the child……We have had nothing but bad experiences

Response:

That is a horrendous story.  I, as a protective social worker, can’t even imagine telling a parent to get out of there before the cops catch up with her.  The system as a whole does fail many children and that is so unfortunate.  Foster parents most of the time aren’t included in the planning process.  Limited budgets, the court system and caseloads often take precident over meeting the child’s needs. You, as foster parents, have the most difficult job.  We ask so much of you and don’t include you in the decision making as much as you should be.  The problem is, these children do not have the advocates they need. The court appointed attorneys are often overloaded with cases as are the social workers.  Children fall through the cracks and I as a PSW try my best not to let that happen on my caseload.  A good book is by Marc Parent called Turning Stones.  Excellent on the child welfare system. One that has made me turn my car around on my way home, just to check one more time on a child that I have a "gut" feeling about. We must all ban together and fight for the rights and needs of children in the custody of the state.  Social workers really need to try very hard to keep the foster parents updated on everything and to really listen to their valueable  input.  Often times, schedules make it difficult to do pro-active work.  The child welfare system does mostly Re-active work.  We are always in crisis and changing schools is often one of the last thoughts.  However these children have so little stability in their lives, school is often a refuge.  We take them from their families (most of the time for very good reasons), from their pets, friends, etc.  Then we wonder why they have "attachment disorder".   Don’t be discouraged as your work does pay off, it is hard to see when all the turmoil is going on but those children talk about you for years to come.  Many a night when I am riding around with a child, they tell me of "so and so’s" house and how much they liked it there or words of wisdom from a FP.  You touch their lives!

Response:

I’m with you on this one!  It seems as if we work our butts off to help these kids that enter our home, only so the system can turn around and mess them up even more.   Here’s a perfect example: Right now we’ve got 2 kids that we’re "babysitting", they were placed with us before & their mom came and asked if we’d watch them while she got some personal problems worked out.  Their mom has arrest warrents out for her, the SW’s talked about placing the kids with us because she failed to show up for 2 weeks now (we were only suppose to have them for the weekend), but when the day came to do it they got in touch with the mom and told her to pick the kids up TODAY and to get out of the area before the cops catch up with her.  Guess it didn’t matter to the SW that the 8 year old has been in 9 different schools so far, held back in school once, and has seemed to stabilize with us in the past few weeks.  All they were concerned about is having to pay the bill if the kids ended up in care.  What a crock huh?  What ever happened to the child’s best interest?

Response:

On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:09:45 -0600 (CST), Amy Hibbard <Amy…@webtv.net> wrote: >I would like to know if there are any foster parents who feel that the >system fails the child……We have had nothing but bad experiences

Yep. But…. Here in Surrey (UK) the County’s social services budget is under ridiculous pressure. The amount the national Government thinks needs to be spent on Social Services went up 2.2% for 1999/2000 – less than the rate of inflation – so there’s actually _less_ to spend this year then there was last. Makes it impossible to meet children’s needs. — Mike Pellatt

Response:

I would like to know if there are any foster parents who feel that the system fails the child……We have had nothing but bad experiences

Response:

help

Question:

I need advise about what is best for my daughter, she has been in foster = care for nearly two years and will turn five in october.  I lost her = because of severe depression and have recieved treatment, we are still = struggling but getting by, I can tell that the separation was very = tramatic for her and don’t want to further tramatize my daughter but I = also can not sleep without her.  I need an unbiased opinion of what is = best for her?  I know what is best for me and what a lawyer will believe = is best for his pocket and I don’t believe either will consider her best = interests. Innovative Marketing Engineers PO BOX 3187, DeLand, Fl 32723 tan…@totcon.com Bringing new light to old promotions — Innovative Marketing Engineers PO Box 3187, DeLand, Fl 32723 904-734-9886 fax     tan…@totcon.com www.angelfire.com/fl/imagebiz/index.html Bringing New Light to Old Promotion

Response:

they excepted her into their home knowing how sick i was. — Innovative Marketing Engineers PO Box 3187, DeLand, Fl 32723 904-734-9886 fax     tan…@totcon.com www.angelfire.com/fl/imagebiz/index.html Bringing New Light to Old Promotion – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -BROTHERS II wrote in message <6ks8qv$gi…@news01.iafrica.com>… >I can imagine how you must feel, knowing that due to depression you lost >your daughter.   Do whatever you have to do, but remeber she has found a new >home, with people that care for her.  Please take into account the foster >parents and the impact of losing her could have on them.  I hope that all >works out for the best and that all the individuals are happy in the end. >Good Luck >Faisal

Response:

What is condition of your depression?  Is your  depression under control.  If so I would say a judge and anyone else who wanted to keep a family together not torn apart would gladly reunite the 2 of you.  But you must be able to prove the you are now mentally and medically sound.

Response:

I can imagine how you must feel, knowing that due to depression you lost your daughter.   Do whatever you have to do, but remeber she has found a new home, with people that care for her.  Please take into account the foster parents and the impact of losing her could have on them.  I hope that all works out for the best and that all the individuals are happy in the end. Good Luck Faisal

Response:

Stay in her life. Don’t let her go.  Keep consistent contact. Take time to let her learn to know you. Five yo are very interested.  Be the best Mom you can be(quality time). It does not mean you abruptly move into her life or remove her from her foster home too quickly. Do what you can, but show your love. Take time and don’t make promises you can’t keep. You are important to your daughter. There may come a day when you can be with her more…move tword that day. Lin in MI

Response:

Rachel weeping

Question:

I’m in the same position you mentioned.  My husband and I have only recently allowed ourselves to admit that Michael might be living with us forever more, and have begun to make a Life Plan.  And we fully realize that Mike is one of the really lucky ones.  With our support and financial safety net, he’s going to be able to live an almost normal life, and hopefully even get married some day.  His needs will not be as pressing as those of most of his friends.  I know people who have adopted kids with such severe issues that these kids can’t ever stay home indefinetly.  After living within the typical middle class adoptive home, I, also, believe that they will be very ill-prepared for the reality of life on their own.  And with such limited skills that the public special education system provides, and with few if any programs available for children with attachment issues and behavioral problems, I don’t see sheltered workshops or co-operative living arrangements being in their future.  I’m really lucky in that I’ve got the financial resources to protect Michael for the rest of his life- and that what it will take to protect him will be relatively minimal. -c

Response:

Hi Anne, the book is by Jonathon Kozol and it’s excellent, however- be prepared.  It’s not a pretty characterization of the typical welfare mom.  The women he interviewed are a pretty self-serving lot and pretty much equal to the low standard set for them by the media.  If the book had been written by anyone other than Kozol I would have discounted the research and interviews, but seeing it was written by someone who’s work I deeply respect, I’ve given it a lot of thought over the years.  I’m sorry to say, the book is a pretty fair representation of the people I have encountered in 11 years in the domestic special needs adoption arena.  You’ll see for yourself and let me know your thoughts.  If you want to discuss it, let me know and I’ll reread it to stay with you.

Thanks, Carole. I also have had quite a bit of contact with the "welfare class," particularly single mothers receiving AFDC/TANF. I have no romantic delusions at all about it. I’ve seen far too many young women (and men) who could have made something of themselves fail to do so, and start another generation of using and abusing other people, including their own children. Nothing Dickensian about that. there is no help anywhere for the working poor.  No lawyer steps forward to sue the landlord, nobody comes with new tools.  The world as they knew it is now over forever.  Scary.   One other man who also stayed with me was homeless after he, his elderly mother, and two children lost their apartment because the hospital where he wife died took all their money to pay hospital bills, demanded it and the people were ignorant so they paid the hospital rather than the rent.  Meanwhile, the wife died slowly and he had to tend her and lost his job because of it.  This man was in the book because the food kitchen staff mentioned to the author that he was starving himself to death by giving all his food to his kids.

This is the stuff that makes the heart break. It’s one thing to be poor because a person is lazy, another to be poor because a person just can’t get the breaks. The book was primarily about the children of these marginally functional adults.  Enough sad stories,  read the book.  It’s engrossing and enlightening.

You know, Caroline, I worry about marginally functioning adults. I think about all of the former foster children who, fetally exposed to drugs and alcohol, or who have low IQs, are aging out of the system into a society that only provides marginal help to those of marginal abilities. I worry about the *adopted* children who have to go out into the world, having lived middle-class lives during their childhoods, and who then are capable of sustaining only welfare-class lifestyles. I’m seeing this with many of my peers whose special needs adopted children are now adults. It’s a pressing need among all such struggling families, whether their children are adopted or not, but my guess is that it will become more of an issue only because child advocates start making an issue of it and it becomes a "ex child" welfare issue (ex-child, meaning former child). In other words, it should have been an issue a long time ago, but we’re notorious in America for ignoring the people in our own society who are considered ‘marginal,’ and then going to the ends of the earth to defend the poor starving masses somewhere else. Anne — L. Anne Babb To save energy, do not go out lookin’ for trouble; chances are, it will find you soon enough. (Forrest Gump)

Response:

Anne, there is a book entitled Rachel and Her Children.  It’s about the women of the welfare class who do not relinquish.  The portraly of the children is heartbreaking, the portrayal of the women is gritty, but the information about abandoned fathers trying to raise their children is absolutely heartbreaking.

Really? I haven’t heard of it, but it sounds interesting. Do you know if it’s still in print? Except- there is one quote from the book that always stood out to me.  The woman in the emergency shelter was having her 4th child, and she was angry when the author who was interviewing her suggested that she not have any more children she could not support.  Her reply went something like this, "What, because I’m poor I don’t deserve to have a family, I can’t have kids but YOU can?"  That comment has always stayed with me.

What does this mean to you? I’m wondering if it means that this woman thought it was responsible to bring children she couldn’t support into the world? Anne — L. Anne Babb To save energy, do not go out lookin’ for trouble; chances are, it will find you soon enough. (Forrest Gump)

Response:

Hi Anne, the book is by Jonathon Kozol and it’s excellent, however- be prepared.  It’s not a pretty characterization of the typical welfare mom.  The women he interviewed are a pretty self-serving lot and pretty much equal to the low standard set for them by the media.  If the book had been written by anyone other than Kozol I would have discounted the research and interviews, but seeing it was written by someone who’s work I deeply respect, I’ve given it a lot of thought over the years.  I’m sorry to say, the book is a pretty fair representation of the people I have encountered in 11 years in the domestic special needs adoption arena.  You’ll see for yourself and let me know your thoughts.  If you want to discuss it, let me know and I’ll reread it to stay with you. As for the men.  This was the stuff that I was unaware of and that most affected me deep in my heart.  The men who are homeless with their children are most often widows, and frequently are also responsible for an elderly parent. One man was homeless while his family lived in a shelter.  This man had been a steadily working and productive member of society until the apartment building they lived in burned down.  All his tools were lost, and it was discovered that the landlord had no insurance.  WIthout the tools he could not work, without the work he could not earn enough for more tools, and meanwhile the home was burned and gone, as were all the posessions.  This couple were so beaten by life in general, barely staying afloat in the "good times’ that they had no resources either financial or emotional, to get them through this crisis.  And there is no help anywhere for the working poor.  No lawyer steps forward to sue the landlord, nobody comes with new tools.  The world as they knew it is now over forever.  Scary.   One other man who also stayed with me was homeless after he, his elderly mother, and two children lost their apartment because the hospital where he wife died took all their money to pay hospital bills, demanded it and the people were ignorant so they paid the hospital rather than the rent.  Meanwhile, the wife died slowly and he had to tend her and lost his job because of it.  This man was in the book because the food kitchen staff mentioned to the author that he was starving himself to death by giving all his food to his kids.   The book was primarily about the children of these marginally functional adults.  Enough sad stories,  read the book.  It’s engrossing and enlightening. I’d love to know if you, too, felt the difference between the once-marrieds and the singles was as stark as I felt it was.  There was a clear difference, but was it a bias or facts? -c

Response:

Anne, there is a book entitled Rachel and Her Children.  It’s about the women of the welfare class who do not relinquish.  The portraly of the children is heartbreaking, the portrayal of the women is gritty, but the information about abandoned fathers trying to raise their children is absolutely heartbreaking.

Yeah, it’s by Jonathan Kozol who has given us so many fine works including ON BEING A TEACHER and ILLITERATE (?IN?) AMERICA, AMAZING GRACE and so many more.  For some reason I often confuse J.K. with Nat Hentoff — does anyone else do that? Back to RACHEL AND HER CHILDREN, I guess I’ve just assumed that the book is an allusion to the Biblical Rachel, but don’t recall any specific mention.  Does anyone know for sure?   You all who are reading/writing in this subject might be interested to know that the Dec 8 97 issue of CHRISTIANITY TODAY contains an article by Wendy Murray Zoba, entitled MARY REJOICING, RACHEL WEEPING, which imo contains many interesting tidbits of info, none of them terribly close to the subject of adoption.  Among them: D.A. Carson estimates that the number of boys killed by Herod’s decree might be "perhaps a dozen or so". Parallels to Dostoyevsky’s works. "If … Then, Rachel’s weeping gives voice to God’s own lament over the loss of his children. …" To all, since this isn’t exactly a mainstream publication, let me know if you’d like a copy of the short article.       Sue T.

Response:

 The New Testament story refers us back to Jeremiah 31:15-17, "This is what the Lord says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."  

Norma, for brevity’s sake I snipped most of your beautiful article. I think it was a heartfelt message and appreciated it. The thread caught my attention because I have a book proposal out for a book titled, "Rachel Weeping." Interesting that you’d use those particular words, and nice to see your application. Thank you, Anne — L. Anne Babb For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Response:

Anne, there is a book entitled Rachel and Her Children.  It’s about the women of the welfare class who do not relinquish.  The portraly of the children is heartbreaking, the portrayal of the women is gritty, but the information about abandoned fathers trying to raise their children is absolutely heartbreaking. Except- there is one quote from the book that always stood out to me.  The woman in the emergency shelter was having her 4th child, and she was angry when the author who was interviewing her suggested that she not have any more children she could not support.  Her reply went something like this, "What, because I’m poor I don’t deserve to have a family, I can’t have kids but YOU can?"  That comment has always stayed with me. -c

Response:

I certainly wasn’t patient while they wandered around "in Egypt" ignoring our love, teachings and traditions, but the rest of Jeremiah promises, "Your children will return to their own land."  And they did.

I agree we need to let our children go.. And not live thru the child.. Today.. I must let the fact that my bson is not searching for me.. I must let that go.  And get on with my life.. Just as I must rejoice when my kept children leave the house.. and start a life on their own cause they can.. And because I did the work well of raising them, so that they are strong enough to do this.. I have faith in the God of my understanding and I have to keep that faith, that He or She is looking after my first born.. Thanks for the message.. Jackie C Remove the J for return mail..new address is

Response:

Holidays are not easy times for those who have experienced loss, especially if it is a loss involving a family member. The images on TV, the cards, the symbols and the greetings are usually filled with the mythology of many traditions, mostly of Consumerism and European Paganism, mingled with a few Christian rites.  December 28 is called "Feast of the Holy Innocents" and remembers the first martyrs of Christendom, the 50-100 babies under the age of 2 that Herod killed trying to eliminate the new "king" he’d heard about. Even Herod’s own relatives weren’t safe from his evil nature–he killed many of them.  The New Testament story refers us back to Jeremiah 31:15-17, "This is what the Lord says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."  Mary and Joseph did what good parents everywhere do–they heeded the warnings and did what was necessary to protect their baby.  The irony is they fled to Egypt, from which Moses, the most famous adopted child in history, had led his people to freedom centuries before this baby’s birth and where Pharoah had also killed innocent babies.  When my oldest children died in the 60s, I didn’t know about this beautiful passage from Jeremiah; but when my two teen-agers in the 80s set us aside and went their own ways I was a Christian and I had this wonderful story on my refrigerator door for two years.  I certainly wasn’t patient while they wandered around "in Egypt" ignoring our love, teachings and traditions, but the rest of Jeremiah promises, "Your children will return to their own land."  And they did.  If Christmas holidays are hard because you’ve had a miscarriage, or placed a child for adoption, or lost a custody battle or your adult child is wandering in Egypt,  tuck this passage in your wallet or purse or stick it on the bulletin board or computer screen.   Many others are with you in spirit. Norma

Response:

Russian Girls ?

Question:

I have a question what will happen to the two 4 year old Russian girls now, what is happening, will they go back to Russia, will they be put in foster care while aparents are investigated, will they stay with aparents? The only info I have is what I’ve read on this news group and I’m wondering what would happen next, anyone know ? Ann —                   "To thine own self be true"

Response:

Ann, the prospective parents are Arizona residents so I may know a bit more than others … or maybe not.   What I have been told and what I’ve read in the newspapers is this:  The prospective adoptive parents are back in Arizona and the girls are in foster care in New York.  The agency is getting a great many dirty looks and comments and to my knowledge haven’t spoken on the subject. Neighbors who knew the Thornes have appeared on television, etc. to tell what a nice couple they are and how INCREDIBLE these allegations are. State and private adoption officials have also come out in force to say that such things happen — especially with post-institutionalized adoptions — but that we shouldn’t be alarmed, the system is working as it should and all the loose ends will soon be neatly tied.  (Imo, iow to the media:  Pulleze, go find another story and let us deal with this in peace.) Wish I knew more but I’m trying to recover from massive indigestion before I go looking for more upsettedness.  (We have, here in AZ, what I hope is more than our share of "unusual" adoptions.)         Sue T. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question what will happen to the two 4 year old Russian girls now, what is happening, will they go back to Russia, will they be put in foster care while aparents are investigated, will they stay with aparents? The only info I have is what I’ve read on this news group and I’m wondering what would happen next, anyone know ? Ann —                   "To thine own self be true"

Response:

Is mentioning your child's name here a good idea?

Question:

Lets not use this newsgroup to work ourselves up into a paranoid frenzy over privacy issues .  There are other newsgroups out there for that purpose

I never intended for anyone to work themselves into a paranoid frenzy, just to question the wisdom of introducing one more piece of private information into a public forum. I may have done so unwittingly in the past myself. I’m sure many of us have. Some of us my now regret that decision. Your children’s names belong to your children, not to the world. You can brag about your son or daughter without using their name, and if one single tragedy is prevented by this minor omission you may have saved your child’s life. Either by extending its length or by preserving its quality. Of course, it is always the parent’s decision to make. NLS

Response:

The reason we entered the internet, and I spend hours reading these newsgroups is because our son was  kidnapped. He was at that time 15 years old and seriously ill requiring (according to state employee doctors) voluntary foster care in a medical facility.  Once placed there he was removed without our knowledge or consent by a non-=relative who reported to protective services that our son had been abandoned. That person requested guardianship and was granted it on an emergency basis.  THis unfunded our son after 13 years of our efforts to get him funded.  To maintain his medical care we had to "consent" to "voluntary "protection" in an unsafe foster home from which our son was eventaully removed when the foster parent abused him.  To make a long story short, we took him home without consent a couple of times and the court later placed him with us every time, but the original kidnapper had a medical degree and so the court appointed guardian and the 20 other state employees whose jobs depended on having sick kids to care for repeatedly filed child abuse charges against us to re "protect" our son , and then repeatedly dropped the charges as soon as they had him hidden from us.   The really sad part is, these people refused to provide our son medical care, and deprived him of the very medication which was the reason he was placed in the voluntary medical residential program.  Our son has since been diagnosed as a manic depressive and schizophrenic.  He is violent and suicidal.  All of this according his original doctors is addressed by the medication the state wont allow to be administered.   I am not making this up.  You wouldnt think this could happen in America, but it does all the time.  Anyone who knows where your child is, and that you are not physically present with them can take your child, can do them harm.  It isnt just sexual perverts anymore.  This is not an isolated case.  I live in Alaska which has a small population and yet since this happened to us, we have networked with dozens of other families with similar stories.  Some of our friends know 2 or 3 families very well to whom this has happened.   I dont think its paranoid to be very careful about what you say about your childrend in a newgroup, especially one that clearly is about children.  That is where the stalker hang out looking for targets.  The only way I can figure out our kinapper knew where our son was, was through accessing medical files in a computer.  We just havent been able to prove it.

Response:

Currently it’s possible for anyone who can access the Internet to find out your home address from your name. Even it’s location on a map. If you use a "handle" it’s harder, but your e-mail address will allow pulling up your home address in some cases. I know everyone’s proud of their child’s name, but giving their name out in a public forum like this one may be asking for trouble. A person with your name and address could very likely figure out how to find your child. Considering the personal nature of what is discussed here, a person with that information, your name, and your child’s name and age, would be well armed to pick up your child from school or near your home. You don’t have to use your child’s name here, and you probably shouldn’t. It’s not a nice world any more.

Response:

Currently it’s possible for anyone who can access the Internet to find out your home address from your name. Even it’s location on a map. If you use a "handle" it’s harder, but your e-mail address will allow pulling up your home address in some cases. I know everyone’s proud of their child’s name, but giving their name out in a public forum like this one may be asking for trouble. A person with your name and address could very likely figure out how to find your child. Considering the personal nature of what is discussed here, a person with that information, your name, and your child’s name and age, would be well armed to pick up your child from school or near your home. You don’t have to use your child’s name here, and you probably shouldn’t. It’s not a nice world any more.

If this is what our world has come to and people are sick enough to do this what a sad sad world we live in.. Why do people want to harm children?   Why do people want to take other people’s children WHY!  I live in fear of this.. not paranoia fear.. but to read this and have another worry about being a parent makes me really wonder.  Normally I would brag about my children now I guess I can’t..

Response:

Currently it’s possible for anyone who can access the Internet to find out your home address from your name. <snipped but giving their name out in a public forum like this one may be asking for trouble. A person with your name and address could very likely figure out how to find your child. Considering the personal nature of what is discussed here, a person with that information, your name, and your child’s name and age, would be well armed to pick up your child from school or near your home. You don’t have to use your child’s name here, and you probably shouldn’t. It’s not a nice world any more. If this is what our world has come to and people are sick enough to do this what a sad sad world we live in..

   Agreed, there are sick people out there, but let’s put the blame where it belongs, on those commiting the crimes, not on the victims. I’m getting very tired of hearing ‘If on the victim had done X, if only the victim had said Y, if only the victim had worn Z……etc’.  The victim didn’t ask for this!!  It’s not their fault!!  If someone is bent to abduct a child then they will do it, no matter what the victim does. Someone else may have better statistics for ‘abduction’, but in cases of assault the statistics are that 90% of the time it is someone associated with the victim (someone they ‘know’)!  A friend, a nieghbour, a relative.  People go to extra ordinary lengths to ‘protect’ themselves from the ‘bogeyman’, but what are they doing about the others?  Do you not tell anyone your child’s name?  ’Sorry Aunt and Uncle so and so, but I don’t think it is a ’safe’ idea that you know the name of my child.’ I was a volunteer for a Rape Crisis centre for several years and I got so fustrated with the number of ‘children’ that called in and felt that it was ‘their fault’ when they were assualted.  That if they’d only done something different it would never have happened.  And most of these assualts were by a relative or a ‘friend of the family’. Sure, be careful with strangers, but be even more careful with the people you allow in your home!

Response:

Currently it’s possible for anyone who can access the Internet to find out your home address from your name. <snipped but giving their name out in a public forum like this one may be asking for trouble. A person with your name and address could very likely figure out how to find your child. Considering the personal nature of what is discussed here, a person with that information, your name, and your child’s name and age, would be well armed to pick up your child from school or near your home. You don’t have to use your child’s name here, and you probably shouldn’t. It’s not a nice world any more.

Thank you, Thank you for the response below.  Please remember that most of the really gruesome things that happen to children are perpretrated on them by someone with a connection to their own family or stepfamily.   Lets not use this newsgroup to work ourselves up into a paranoid frenzy over privacy issues .  There are other newsgroups out there for that purpose – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Agreed, there are sick people out there, but let’s put the blame where it belongs, on those commiting the crimes, not on the victims. I’m getting very tired of hearing ‘If on the victim had done X, if only the victim had said Y, if only the victim had worn Z……etc’.  The victim didn’t ask for this!!  It’s not their fault!!  If someone is bent to abduct a child then they will do it, no matter what the victim does. Someone else may have better statistics for ‘abduction’, but in cases of assault the statistics are that 90% of the time it is someone associated with the victim (someone they ‘know’)!  A friend, a nieghbour, a relative.  People go to extra ordinary lengths to ‘protect’ themselves from the ‘bogeyman’, but what are they doing about the others?  Do you not tell anyone your child’s name?  ’Sorry Aunt and Uncle so and so, but I don’t think it is a ’safe’ idea that you know the name of my child.’ I was a volunteer for a Rape Crisis centre for several years and I got so fustrated with the number of ‘children’ that called in and felt that it was ‘their fault’ when they were assualted.  That if they’d only done something different it would never have happened.  And most of these assualts were by a relative or a ‘friend of the family’. Sure, be careful with strangers, but be even more careful with the people you allow in your home!

Response:

rights and privileges

Question:

You asked me to reply to this e-mail, but my reader cut off the header, so I don’t have your address. The author of the original note was asking about the relationship between birthmothers and adoptive mothers.  That is why I wrote exclusively about that very relationship. As for the contact I have with my child, we are playing it by ear.  I had raised my son for 2 years before I signed the adoption papers.  We felt that it might be too confusing for him if I were to have visits with him.  The last thing we wanted was to inflict emotional pain and confusion on him.  It also would’ve been difficult for me emotionally. During the past few months I have spoken with him on the phone twice, the first being the first time since his placement 1-1/2 years ago.  It went wonderfully both times.  He is told that I am his birthmother, although he doesn’t really have a concept of what that word means as he is not quite 4 years old. I am sure that there will come a time when we all feel comfortable about trying a "visit", as long as my son wants it, and see how it goes.  But at this fragile age, we don’t want to threaten his sense of security. He has adjusted extremely well and is very happy.  It is impossible to know what effect his seeing me might have on him, if any at all.  If he remembers me, he might think that I am going to take him away, even if it is subconsciously.  We would rather wait until the odds are better that it wont cause any problems for him. Janet ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: alt.adoption Path: aio!bcm!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!emory!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!ukma!lunatix! becca Organization: Lexington Public Access UNIX -KY- (606)269-0992 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 42 : I am comforted to know that my son will never have to wonder about his : heritage, wonder whether his b-parents loved him or not.  I am also : truly comforted in knowing that I have placed my precious son in the : hands of parents who are so thoughtful, loving and nurturing. : Janet : Ok but why all the second hand accounts? Do you have a relation ship with your : child?  I get the feeling from your post that your child has never met you is : this fair for him/her.  You get an open adoption but what about the child? Do : they just get a box of letters? I think there is something here that you don’t understand.  Take a few minutes to think about the confusing messages you would be sending to a child, introducing him to his birth mother.  I feel that we’d be opening the door to some potentially very serious problems for the adoptee.  His/Her position in the family, security and ‘place’ in the family could be threatened, in his own perception.  All the support and love in the world cannot guarantee that a child will accept the fact that he is in a secure environment when a _second_ mother arrives on the scene. I am an adoptee, and have had a letter to the agency I was adopted through sitting in my files for four years, since I was 25.  That’s the age in Tennessee at which time birth records can be opened.  I am still not ready to mail that letter, and I feel that _I_ am _the only person_ who should have a voice in that decision. You imply that not having a relationship with your birth mother would be some kind of short change situation.  I completely disagree.  A child only requires one set of parents, and if, eventually, the birth parents are located, a good situation can be made even better.  But please, please don’t subject the adoptees to things that they cannot possibly understand. — "I think not," replied Rene Descartes.          Becca Sexton      

I keep looking for the date on this post but I keep reading 1994.  Could there be something wrong with my computer, because I swear I am reading an attitude from 1594? THE FACTS:    ADOPTED CHILDREN HAVE TWO SETS OF PARENTS. No legal mumbo jumbo decrees, no misrepresentation on the part of one set of parents is going to hide this fact for long.  One day the adopted child will learn this truth.  He/she has two heritages.  Adopted children have two histories.  They have two of everything!  Neither connection can be dismissed as unimportant.  Denial of one does not increase the power of the other.  A lot of the discussions here are within the reference frame of a "natural" family in which there is one set of parents.  Just as we are redefining what the makeup of the "family unit" is so must we change our reference frame to understand that the same set of rules used to measure the "normal" family cannot be used to measure the adoption triad.  Many of the problems discussed here are brought on by an attempt by our society to force ourselves to see the adoption triad as a single unit.  The term "THE parents" is totally invalid.   I fully understand how early astronomers felt when faced with the "earth is flat" theory!  The facts are convoluted and twisted until the valid arguments are lost. Children are confused more when their perceptions are invalidated by later facts.  A child growing up with the perspective of having one heritage is thrown into a state of confusion when the reality of his/her duality is thrust upon them.  Allowing the child to grow within his/her dual environment allows them to gain a true perspective of themselves and their significance in this world. Doug

Response:

She goes out of her way to include me as much as possible in knowing him by telling me all the little details, all the cute stories, sending me pictures, etc.  I cannot imagine being deprived of this.  I think it would have taken years (maybe never) to get to the point where I am able to laugh and smile and feel joy in my life, without this open adoption. I am comforted to know that my son will never have to wonder about his heritage, wonder whether his b-parents loved him or not.  I am also truly comforted in knowing that I have placed my precious son in the hands of parents who are so thoughtful, loving and nurturing. Janet Ok but why all the second hand accounts? Do you have a relation ship with your child?  I get the feeling from your post that your child has never met you is this fair for him/her.  You get an open adoption but what about the child? Do they just get a box of letters? Email Please

Response:

: I am comforted to know that my son will never have to wonder about his : heritage, wonder whether his b-parents loved him or not.  I am also : truly comforted in knowing that I have placed my precious son in the : hands of parents who are so thoughtful, loving and nurturing. : Janet : Ok but why all the second hand accounts? Do you have a relation ship with your : child?  I get the feeling from your post that your child has never met you is : this fair for him/her.  You get an open adoption but what about the child? Do : they just get a box of letters? I think there is something here that you don’t understand.  Take a few minutes to think about the confusing messages you would be sending to a child, introducing him to his birth mother.  I feel that we’d be opening the door to some potentially very serious problems for the adoptee.  His/Her position in the family, security and ‘place’ in the family could be threatened, in his own perception.  All the support and love in the world cannot guarantee that a child will accept the fact that he is in a secure environment when a _second_ mother arrives on the scene. I am an adoptee, and have had a letter to the agency I was adopted through sitting in my files for four years, since I was 25.  That’s the age in Tennessee at which time birth records can be opened.  I am still not ready to mail that letter, and I feel that _I_ am _the only person_ who should have a voice in that decision. You imply that not having a relationship with your birth mother would be some kind of short change situation.  I completely disagree.  A child only requires one set of parents, and if, eventually, the birth parents are located, a good situation can be made even better.  But please, please don’t subject the adoptees to things that they cannot possibly understand. — "I think not," replied Rene Descartes.          Becca Sexton      

Response:

I’m reading with interest aboutrights of the birth parents vs rights of the adoptive parents.  Well there also the rights of the child to be considered.   It’s not a cut and dried issue.  All three rights are intertwined.   When a B-Mother gives up her child, does this mean she gives up all memory, all love and all things pertaining to that child.  You cant erase the memories.   The adoptive parents must have the interests of the child in mind before all else.  That is primarily why they are adopting…..to love this child they will call their own.  Love requires that this child’s best interests are fostered and pursued.   We can no longer permit a system to continue that deprives a child of his biological heritage.  Closed adopted usually is just such a system.   One needs to know about one’s roots in order to be whole.   When adoptive parents foster a love that permits knowledge about a child’s roots, thes a-parents are truly loving their child.  For he or she is their child.   They care and nuture, they laugh and cry, they experience life with their child.   I was adopted at the age of four.  I truly love my adoptive family.  they are my very own.   I recently found my B-mother.  And my adoptive family rejoiced with me.   The experience gave me such a new level of fulfillment in my life that I feel more than whole…..I have a wonderful family that now extends to my B-mother and my half sisters, and uncles and aunts and cousins and cultural heritage. The child, as Kahil Gibran writes, is but an arrow in the bow of his parents.   Regards to all who read this post. Bill Kokesch (by the way Kokesch is my adoptive family name, the one I will carry until I die  with lots of pride and love.)

Response:

Bill Said: (regarding our discussuions of rights) …All three rights are intertwined.  (b’mom/a’parentts/child) When a B-Mother gives up her child, does this mean she gives up all memory, all love and all things pertaining to that child.   You cant erase the memories.  

That is primarily why they are adopting…..to love this child they will call their own.  Love requires that this child’s best interests are fostered and pursued.   We can no longer permit a system to continue that deprives a child of his biological heritage.  Closed adopted usually is just such a system.  

(stuff deleted) Bill Kokesch (by the way Kokesch is my adoptive family name, the one I will carry until I die  with lots of pride and love.)

Thank you bill for an elegant expression. Unfortunately many people on this board feel that "open adoption" is simply sending a post-card to the agency once a (pick one: month/quarter/year/decade) What you say of the voids are quite true.  WITH REAL open adoptions you dont have that. no wondering (from the kid why he whas abaandoned? from the b’mom on whtere the a’family is joel rifkind or not),etc. I really thank you again

Response:

writes: We can no longer permit a system to continue that deprives a child of his biological heritage.  Closed adopted usually is just such a system.  

Bill, I’m not sure we should prohibit ("no longer permit") any option that people might wish to pursue.  My wife and I were both adopted within the "closed" system, and neither of us feels deprived of anything, nor do we fell less loved for it.  This does not invalidate the feelings of others, like yourself, who feel otherwise.  I’m simply suggesting that while closed adoptions _can_ result in feelings of deprivation, it’s not necessarily the case that they _will_. When my wife and I started to approach the adoption process, we both agreed from the start that open adoption was in the interest of our family (children included), and pursued an option that remains closed. This was our carefully considered choice; we wouldn’t impose it on anyone else, and we would not want it taken away from us.  I would also thank you not to judge our love, or our commitment to our children’s happiness, on this one subjective criterion. Sorry if this seems strongly worded; I respect your preference, but not your willingness to control mine. Doug Knowles                                All opinions strictly my own. Language Products Group                            Nobody else wants ‘em. Symantec Corporation

Response:

 M{ I’m reading with interest aboutrights of the birth parents vs rights  M{ of  the adoptive parents.  Well there also the rights of the child to  M{ be  considered.   It’s not a cut and dried issue.  All three rights are  M{ intertwined.    M{ When a B-Mother gives up her child, does this mean she gives up all  M{ memory, all love and all things pertaining to that child.  You cant  M{ erase  the memories.    M{ The adoptive parents must have the interests of the child in mind  M{ before  all else.  That is primarily why they are adopting…..to love  M{ this child  they will call their own.  Love requires that this child’s  M{ best interests  are fostered and pursued.   Very beautifully put.  I am a b-mother with an open adoption.  I placed my child when he was 2 years old.  His a-mother is an adoptee.  I am as well.  We both know how important it is for an adoptee to know of his/her biological heritage.  My son’s a-mother did a search for her b-parents.  With much pain, she found out that her b-mother had passed away.  She was however fortunate enough to find other b-relatives and cherishes her extended family.  Through her b-relatives she learned of what her b-mother went through in her decision of the adoption.  I believe it is because of this knowledge that she is so very thoughtful of my feelings and rights also.  She has been the most instrumental person in my healing.  I live with pain daily as I am not able to experience the joy of holding my son, of seeing his smiles, his growth. She goes out of her way to include me as much as possible in knowing him by telling me all the little details, all the cute stories, sending me pictures, etc.  I cannot imagine being deprived of this.  I think it would have taken years (maybe never) to get to the point where I am able to laugh and smile and feel joy in my life, without this open adoption. I am comforted to know that my son will never have to wonder about his heritage, wonder whether his b-parents loved him or not.  I am also truly comforted in knowing that I have placed my precious son in the hands of parents who are so thoughtful, loving and nurturing. Janet ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

Response:

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