Foster Parents FAQ » Foster Parent Support » DCF official resigns following death of Vero Beach baby
DCF official resigns following death of Vero Beach baby
Question:
Thanks for the kind words Kane. I really appreciate it when someone realizes exactly what my motives are. "kane" <pohakuyakok…@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f77b8b6e.0411301217.dd2b8e4@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:05:43 GMT, "WitchWirsen" > <johncwir…@mchsi.com> wrote: >>"Mark" <m…@ivalenti.com> wrote in message >>news:4551191c.0411290950.1b96447c@posting.google.com… >>> pohakuyakok…@yahoo.com (kane) wrote in message >>> <news:f77b8b6e.0411261846.1ea0cf2e@posting.google.com>… >>>> On 26 Nov 2004 22:12:58 GMT, fern5…@aol.com (Fern5827) wrote: >>>> >>The baby’s maternal grandmother, Sharon Leonardo, said he would >>>> still >>>> >>be alive if DCF had listened to the many pleas she made >>>> >>when she saw counselors in the month before Tyler’s death. > Documents >>>> >>released by the agency show she tried to convince the >>>> >>agency that her daughter could not properly care for Tyler and > twice >>>> >>called the agency in the two weeks before he died, but DCF >>>> >>never returned the calls. >>>> They did not have sufficient evidence to obtain a warrant, nor >>>> establish probable cause. >>> I don’t know the specifics of this case in their entirety, but I >>> assure you, they do not need sufficient evidence, at least not in > my >>> state. They simply need the word of a CPS worker. >>> The judge who signed the order in my case admitted that all she > went >>> on and all that is required is the word of a CPS worker. I pray > that >>> other states are different, but here, if a CPS worker wants a > child, >>> for any reason, they get that child. >>Mark, >>It’s pretty much the same in every state. DFS has no trouble finding > a >>reason to remove a child from their home. >>New laws are coming into effect that will serve to make that much > harder for >>them to do, but in the mean time, not every state has statutes that > would >>prevent this kind of thing. >>I have, at times, been very angry about the actions of DFS, not only > in >>country wide, but in my own family as well. I try very hard to step > back >>and look at the big picture…though at times it is extremely hard to > do. >>I am currently in the middle of a case with DFS (my daughter’s child, > I >>petitioned the court for custody and intervention and came out with >>intervention and physical custody only) and at this time I am doing a > family >>reunification program that requires a social worker (we used to call > them >>’home maker workers’) in my home from 7 to 10 hours per week. >>In addition, I attend family support team meetings every two weeks, > and >>court hearings when necessary (all while raising the infant in > question, >>raising a 15 year old, providing home and support for a 19 year old > son and >>daughter in law, actively helping to raise a 12 year old and 11 year > old of >>my own who live with their father in a neighboring town, and managing > a >>business while trying to keep up with my husbands needs…he thinks > I’m >>still his secretary sometimes I believe LOL….I’m pretty busy) >>Sometimes I feel ‘picked on’. Sometimes I wonder if there is an > ‘agenda’ >>that I don’t know about, sometimes I am very comfortable with the >>situation…I guess it just depends on what kind of day I am having > (today >>was a nasty one…lots to do and someone stole a brand new four > wheeler from >>us last night…we had only owned it for about 25 hours before the > theft >>occurred! So that makes for a rotten day!) >>We have spent more money on trying to keep this child out of foster > care >>than I can even count now…though the total it somewhere around $6K > now (in >>four months) but the time spent worrying and fretting over him while > he >>spent 7 weeks in foster care was the worst. >>I’m not happy with our DFS involvement…but I have come to > understand two >>things very clearly through all this… >>1. DFS is an entity…not an individual person. DFS is comprised of > all >>types of people with varying beliefs. I don’t like them all, but by > God, I >>like a whole lot of them and realize that they are doing a job…and > many of >>htem don’t like what they sometimes have to do. >>2. I’ve been through a lot…but not nearly as much as of yet as > some, and >>somehow I feel that it is worth it…why? Because though there may > be no >>need for DFS’s involvement with my family, how do THEY know that? > And how >>many other families have benfitted greatly from the same program that > I now >>have? >>I know this statement is going to burn some asses here…and that is > ok, I’m >>going to make it anyway…I don’t feel like we are being mistreated > by >>DFS…I feel like they are doing an excellent job at seeking out who > needs >>services and who doesn’t and if my time and efforts help them make > that >>determination and any one family is saved by their efforts, then what > I am >>going through is worth it. >>Sure, it’s hard, no, it REALLY FUCKING SUCKS sometimes…Baby is up > all >>night crying because he has gas just when DFS is due to arrive in > four hours >>and have not had any sleep, and don’t feel like having anyone around, > or I >>might be trying to cook dinner with a worker in the house, it’s not > always >>fun…but I HAVE learned a few things! I’ve raised five kids and > STILL I >>learned something from the last 5 weeks of the program. >>These workers have been a sounding board for me, a source of > information, >>have been HELPFUL around the house when I need to run downstairs and > do a >>load of laundry or whatever by watching baby, and I like what these > ladies >>do…they have very nice personalities, they try to help families > overcome >>obstacles, and they adovocate for the families that deserve it. And > they >>CAN because they are in such close contact that they actually KNOW > me. >>Unfortunately there are the DFS workers who think they are on a > crusade to >>save the children. They are sneaky and twist your words and take > every >>action and make it into something that it’s not. They have an > agenda, and >>usually that agenda is to get the child out of it’s family and into a > ‘nice >>decent’ home…adopted. >>It is very sad for the children that these workers do not realize > what they >>are doing…I can see how 20 years of seeing abused and neglected > children >>would make a person so jaded, but at the same time, it should also > give them >>the skills necessary to see when a child lives within a family that > only >>needs some help…and adoption need not be an option. >>I really hate to read about someone, like yourself, who got hung up > on >>technicalities, bullshit, because that is not the way things are > supposed to >>work, but I realize that we don’t live in a perfect world. >>Sorry to have written so much…but your post prompted me! (so it’s > all >>your fault ha ha ha ) >>Take care, >>Witchy > To those of you that have unfairly criticized Witchy…. > What I see here is that rare exception in this ng, someone that admits > up front they do not have all the answers to why CPS and workers does > what it does and what they do, but is willing to observe, think about, > question, and hope to understand. > She’s willing to point out what she sees as failure in the system, get > unwilling to make up bullshit, or presume what she doesn’t know just > to take the easy way, and is open to learning more. > Why? Why would she go to so much trouble when it would be so easy to > fall in with the party line here? > Could it be honesty and love of her family? > If so then I have to fault her for being so very like a few foster > parents that come here, and a couple or so helpers. And on the rarest > of occasions, an honest parent who refuses to play the blame game, the > lying game, the propaganda game. > And if you read her narrative description of her exeriences, you > twits, you might actually learn something useful…in fact ways to > attack CPS on genuine issues. And get real reform, instead of > destruction that will result in abuse, neglect, and more deaths of > children at the hands of parents, and yes, even at the hands of a > further crippled system. That’s all you offer. Nothing more. > And all for your sad limp little egos. > Kane
Response:
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:05:43 GMT, "WitchWirsen" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<johncwir…@mchsi.com> wrote: >"Mark" <m…@ivalenti.com> wrote in message >news:4551191c.0411290950.1b96447c@posting.google.com… >> pohakuyakok…@yahoo.com (kane) wrote in message >> <news:f77b8b6e.0411261846.1ea0cf2e@posting.google.com>… >>> On 26 Nov 2004 22:12:58 GMT, fern5…@aol.com (Fern5827) wrote: >>> >>The baby’s maternal grandmother, Sharon Leonardo, said he would >>> still >>> >>be alive if DCF had listened to the many pleas she made >>> >>when she saw counselors in the month before Tyler’s death. Documents >>> >>released by the agency show she tried to convince the >>> >>agency that her daughter could not properly care for Tyler and twice >>> >>called the agency in the two weeks before he died, but DCF >>> >>never returned the calls. >>> They did not have sufficient evidence to obtain a warrant, nor >>> establish probable cause. >> I don’t know the specifics of this case in their entirety, but I >> assure you, they do not need sufficient evidence, at least not in my >> state. They simply need the word of a CPS worker. >> The judge who signed the order in my case admitted that all she went >> on and all that is required is the word of a CPS worker. I pray that >> other states are different, but here, if a CPS worker wants a child, >> for any reason, they get that child. >Mark, >It’s pretty much the same in every state. DFS has no trouble finding a >reason to remove a child from their home. >New laws are coming into effect that will serve to make that much harder for >them to do, but in the mean time, not every state has statutes that would >prevent this kind of thing. >I have, at times, been very angry about the actions of DFS, not only in >country wide, but in my own family as well. I try very hard to step back >and look at the big picture…though at times it is extremely hard to do. >I am currently in the middle of a case with DFS (my daughter’s child, I >petitioned the court for custody and intervention and came out with >intervention and physical custody only) and at this time I am doing a family >reunification program that requires a social worker (we used to call them >’home maker workers’) in my home from 7 to 10 hours per week. >In addition, I attend family support team meetings every two weeks, and >court hearings when necessary (all while raising the infant in question, >raising a 15 year old, providing home and support for a 19 year old son and >daughter in law, actively helping to raise a 12 year old and 11 year old of >my own who live with their father in a neighboring town, and managing a >business while trying to keep up with my husbands needs…he thinks I’m >still his secretary sometimes I believe LOL….I’m pretty busy) >Sometimes I feel ‘picked on’. Sometimes I wonder if there is an ‘agenda’ >that I don’t know about, sometimes I am very comfortable with the >situation…I guess it just depends on what kind of day I am having (today >was a nasty one…lots to do and someone stole a brand new four wheeler from >us last night…we had only owned it for about 25 hours before the theft >occurred! So that makes for a rotten day!) >We have spent more money on trying to keep this child out of foster care >than I can even count now…though the total it somewhere around $6K now (in >four months) but the time spent worrying and fretting over him while he >spent 7 weeks in foster care was the worst. >I’m not happy with our DFS involvement…but I have come to understand two >things very clearly through all this… >1. DFS is an entity…not an individual person. DFS is comprised of all >types of people with varying beliefs. I don’t like them all, but by God, I >like a whole lot of them and realize that they are doing a job…and many of >htem don’t like what they sometimes have to do. >2. I’ve been through a lot…but not nearly as much as of yet as some, and >somehow I feel that it is worth it…why? Because though there may be no >need for DFS’s involvement with my family, how do THEY know that? And how >many other families have benfitted greatly from the same program that I now >have? >I know this statement is going to burn some asses here…and that is ok, I’m >going to make it anyway…I don’t feel like we are being mistreated by >DFS…I feel like they are doing an excellent job at seeking out who needs >services and who doesn’t and if my time and efforts help them make that >determination and any one family is saved by their efforts, then what I am >going through is worth it. >Sure, it’s hard, no, it REALLY FUCKING SUCKS sometimes…Baby is up all >night crying because he has gas just when DFS is due to arrive in four hours >and have not had any sleep, and don’t feel like having anyone around, or I >might be trying to cook dinner with a worker in the house, it’s not always >fun…but I HAVE learned a few things! I’ve raised five kids and STILL I >learned something from the last 5 weeks of the program. >These workers have been a sounding board for me, a source of information, >have been HELPFUL around the house when I need to run downstairs and do a >load of laundry or whatever by watching baby, and I like what these ladies >do…they have very nice personalities, they try to help families overcome >obstacles, and they adovocate for the families that deserve it. And they >CAN because they are in such close contact that they actually KNOW me. >Unfortunately there are the DFS workers who think they are on a crusade to >save the children. They are sneaky and twist your words and take every >action and make it into something that it’s not. They have an agenda, and >usually that agenda is to get the child out of it’s family and into a ‘nice >decent’ home…adopted. >It is very sad for the children that these workers do not realize what they >are doing…I can see how 20 years of seeing abused and neglected children >would make a person so jaded, but at the same time, it should also give them >the skills necessary to see when a child lives within a family that only >needs some help…and adoption need not be an option. >I really hate to read about someone, like yourself, who got hung up on >technicalities, bullshit, because that is not the way things are supposed to >work, but I realize that we don’t live in a perfect world. >Sorry to have written so much…but your post prompted me! (so it’s all >your fault ha ha ha ) >Take care, >Witchy
To those of you that have unfairly criticized Witchy…. What I see here is that rare exception in this ng, someone that admits up front they do not have all the answers to why CPS and workers does what it does and what they do, but is willing to observe, think about, question, and hope to understand. She’s willing to point out what she sees as failure in the system, get unwilling to make up bullshit, or presume what she doesn’t know just to take the easy way, and is open to learning more. Why? Why would she go to so much trouble when it would be so easy to fall in with the party line here? Could it be honesty and love of her family? If so then I have to fault her for being so very like a few foster parents that come here, and a couple or so helpers. And on the rarest of occasions, an honest parent who refuses to play the blame game, the lying game, the propaganda game. And if you read her narrative description of her exeriences, you twits, you might actually learn something useful…in fact ways to attack CPS on genuine issues. And get real reform, instead of destruction that will result in abuse, neglect, and more deaths of children at the hands of parents, and yes, even at the hands of a further crippled system. That’s all you offer. Nothing more. And all for your sad limp little egos. Kane
Response:
On 27 Nov 2004 16:08:26 -0800, Gree…@hotmail.com (Greg Hanson) wrote: >When Social Workers deal with Mentally Retarded >people, they often LABEL the person as, for >example, mildly retarded, and they see NO NEED >to seek any labels for what might be very >serious Emotional or Psychiatric pathology >on top of the retardation.
I love it, and douggie isn’t going to correct you, either. >Once they can apply one LABEL and fit the person >into some little box on a bureaucratic form, >other, possibly dangerous ailments may well >be never diagnosed or documented.
Could happen, but I doubt the malicious intent to ignor other ailments. It goes against logic, reason, and the facts I know. >Lots of retarded people would NEVER do the >violent things to a baby that this woman did.
That’s correct. For SOME retardation, and some people. Down’s Syndrome folks are believed by many to be very gentle and happy folks. >I don’t think the retardation is the root of >this problem.
Some kinds would be. Some FAS and FAE folks can be quite violent. >The bureaucratic problem of one LABEL >concealing another is the root here.
Sure it is. No blame should go anywhere else, of course. Not too many years back I was trying to help a lady to keep her from losing two grandchildren she was parenting as a state certified foster parent. Kinship care, it’s called. The chilren were being terrorized and hit, sometimes severly. The grandmother, head of household, had six people living in a three room house, and one of those people was a retarded son in his 30’s. He would, rather sponteaneously, pick up a broom now and then, and beat everyone in the household with the handle. She was reluctant to have him jailed, or institutionalized and he refused to live in sheltered housing for the disabled and be supervised. I lost that one. He broke one of the children’s arm after many months of their worker pleading with the g’mother to take positive action to remove him. He WAS out of the home, but he would sneak (this wasn’t discovered for some time) back in and she would NOT call the police to have him removed and charge him. The call that ended the placement included an exam that showed other injuries the g’mother had concealed, and coached the children not to reveal to their worker. Very sad case. She loved those little tykes I think. Another relative was found though..you know, the kind Fern and Doug keep saying states don’t bother to look for very hard. Or do anything to make a placement happen. So you are wrong, greegor, and I’m honest and caring enough to inform you, rather than let you flouder so I can use you for something. Retarded folks can in fact be very violent. And it’s not rare. It all depends, as most things do. http://www.contemporarypediatrics.com/contpeds/article/articleDetail…. Are you so poorly read that you are unaware of the number of instances where there is legal controversy over the execution of retarded convicted murderers? Nod yes, and say loudly so everyone can hear, "Yep, I’m not a ‘tard but I play one on alt.support.cps and my buddy douggie helps me every chance he gets." Kane
Response:
pohakuyakok…@yahoo.com (kane) wrote in message <news:f77b8b6e.0411261846.1ea0cf2e@posting.google.com>… > On 26 Nov 2004 22:12:58 GMT, fern5…@aol.com (Fern5827) wrote: > >>The baby’s maternal grandmother, Sharon Leonardo, said he would > still > >>be alive if DCF had listened to the many pleas she made > >>when she saw counselors in the month before Tyler’s death. Documents > >>released by the agency show she tried to convince the > >>agency that her daughter could not properly care for Tyler and twice > >>called the agency in the two weeks before he died, but DCF > >>never returned the calls. > They did not have sufficient evidence to obtain a warrant, nor > establish probable cause.
I don’t know the specifics of this case in their entirety, but I assure you, they do not need sufficient evidence, at least not in my state. They simply need the word of a CPS worker. The judge who signed the order in my case admitted that all she went on and all that is required is the word of a CPS worker. I pray that other states are different, but here, if a CPS worker wants a child, for any reason, they get that child.
Response:
"kane" <pohakuyakok…@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f77b8b6e.0411271838.52c0ad0c@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On 27 Nov 2004 16:08:26 -0800, Gree…@hotmail.com (Greg Hanson) > wrote: >>When Social Workers deal with Mentally Retarded >>people, they often LABEL the person as, for >>example, mildly retarded, and they see NO NEED >>to seek any labels for what might be very >>serious Emotional or Psychiatric pathology >>on top of the retardation. > I love it, and douggie isn’t going to correct you, either. >>Once they can apply one LABEL and fit the person >>into some little box on a bureaucratic form, >>other, possibly dangerous ailments may well >>be never diagnosed or documented. > Could happen, but I doubt the malicious intent to ignor other > ailments. It goes against logic, reason, and the facts I know. >>Lots of retarded people would NEVER do the >>violent things to a baby that this woman did. > That’s correct. For SOME retardation, and some people. > Down’s Syndrome folks are believed by many to be very gentle and happy > folks. >>I don’t think the retardation is the root of >>this problem. > Some kinds would be. Some FAS and FAE folks can be quite violent. >>The bureaucratic problem of one LABEL >>concealing another is the root here. > Sure it is. No blame should go anywhere else, of course. > Not too many years back I was trying to help a lady to keep her from > losing two grandchildren she was parenting as a state certified foster > parent. Kinship care, it’s called. > The chilren were being terrorized and hit, sometimes severly. The > grandmother, head of household, had six people living in a three room > house, and one of those people was a retarded son in his 30’s. > He would, rather sponteaneously, pick up a broom now and then, and > beat everyone in the household with the handle. She was reluctant to > have him jailed, or institutionalized and he refused to live in > sheltered housing for the disabled and be supervised. > I lost that one. He broke one of the children’s arm after many months > of their worker pleading with the g’mother to take positive action to > remove him. He WAS out of the home, but he would sneak (this wasn’t > discovered for some time) back in and she would NOT call the police to > have him removed and charge him. > The call that ended the placement included an exam that showed other > injuries the g’mother had concealed, and coached the children not to > reveal to their worker. > Very sad case. She loved those little tykes I think.
As a mother, and grandmother, I can tell you how hard it is to choose between your chilren and grandchildren. On one hand you feel awful doing anything that might be seen as turning against your children…even if it benefits the grandchildren. On the other hand, you realize that the children are old enough to make their own decisions, right or wrong, and that because they are adults your primary concerns should be with the helpless grandchildren. It’s a hard place to be in. Unfortunately, I feel that this grandmother made the wrong decision…her actions apparently will leave life long effects on the grandchildren. How sad for them. I am sure that one day, if not already, she will regret that decision. The most painful part is that a parent even has to make the decison in the first place. It’s a tough row to hoe, as we say. I have made the decision to choose the grandchild and hope that some day the daughter will mature and come to understand her actions for what they are. Were my daughter mentally retarded, I just don’t know what I would do. I certainly ‘feel’ for this woman. What a hard decision to make. (side note) The exceptional good nature and quick bonding coupled with the adorable smile of my grandson made my decision sooooo much easier. :) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Another relative was found though..you know, the kind Fern and Doug > keep saying states don’t bother to look for very hard. Or do anything > to make a placement happen. > So you are wrong, greegor, and I’m honest and caring enough to inform > you, rather than let you flouder so I can use you for something. > Retarded folks can in fact be very violent. And it’s not rare. It all > depends, as most things do. > http://www.contemporarypediatrics.com/contpeds/article/articleDetail…. > Are you so poorly read that you are unaware of the number of instances > where there is legal controversy over the execution of retarded > convicted murderers? > Nod yes, and say loudly so everyone can hear, "Yep, I’m not a ‘tard > but I play one on alt.support.cps and my buddy douggie helps me every > chance he gets."
Fern, Doug, and Bobb are just the minions….Greg is really the ‘brains’ behind the ‘fab four’. Now if we could just get them to duck into a phone booth, put on their capes and fly the fuck outta here we’d have it made. LOL Ok, forgive me. I’m really (really NOT) sorry for that one. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Kane
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"WitchWirsen" <johncwir…@mchsi.com> wrote in message <news:X4Uqd.487663$D%.288263@attbi_s51>… > "Mark" <m…@ivalenti.com> wrote in message > news:4551191c.0411290950.1b96447c@posting.google.com… > > pohakuyakok…@yahoo.com (kane) wrote in message > > <news:f77b8b6e.0411261846.1ea0cf2e@posting.google.com>… > >> On 26 Nov 2004 22:12:58 GMT, fern5…@aol.com (Fern5827) wrote: > >> >>The baby’s maternal grandmother, Sharon Leonardo, said he would > still > >> >>be alive if DCF had listened to the many pleas she made > >> >>when she saw counselors in the month before Tyler’s death. Documents > >> >>released by the agency show she tried to convince the > >> >>agency that her daughter could not properly care for Tyler and twice > >> >>called the agency in the two weeks before he died, but DCF > >> >>never returned the calls. > >> They did not have sufficient evidence to obtain a warrant, nor > >> establish probable cause. > > I don’t know the specifics of this case in their entirety, but I > > assure you, they do not need sufficient evidence, at least not in my > > state. They simply need the word of a CPS worker. > > The judge who signed the order in my case admitted that all she went > > on and all that is required is the word of a CPS worker. I pray that > > other states are different, but here, if a CPS worker wants a child, > > for any reason, they get that child. > Mark, > It’s pretty much the same in every state. DFS has no trouble finding a > reason to remove a child from their home. > New laws are coming into effect that will serve to make that much harder for > them to do, but in the mean time, not every state has statutes that would > prevent this kind of thing. > I have, at times, been very angry about the actions of DFS, not only in > country wide, but in my own family as well. I try very hard to step back > and look at the big picture…though at times it is extremely hard to do. > I am currently in the middle of a case with DFS (my daughter’s child, I > petitioned the court for custody and intervention and came out with > intervention and physical custody only) and at this time I am doing a family > reunification program that requires a social worker (we used to call them > ‘home maker workers’) in my home from 7 to 10 hours per week. > In addition, I attend family support team meetings every two weeks, and > court hearings when necessary (all while raising the infant in question, > raising a 15 year old, providing home and support for a 19 year old son and > daughter in law, actively helping to raise a 12 year old and 11 year old of > my own who live with their father in a neighboring town, and managing a > business while trying to keep up with my husbands needs…he thinks I’m > still his secretary sometimes I believe LOL….I’m pretty busy) > Sometimes I feel ‘picked on’. Sometimes I wonder if there is an ‘agenda’ > that I don’t know about, sometimes I am very comfortable with the > situation…I guess it just depends on what kind of day I am having (today > was a nasty one…lots to do and someone stole a brand new four wheeler from > us last night…we had only owned it for about 25 hours before the theft > occurred! So that makes for a rotten day!) > We have spent more money on trying to keep this child out of foster care > than I can even count now…though the total it somewhere around $6K now (in > four months) but the time spent worrying and fretting over him while he > spent 7 weeks in foster care was the worst. > I’m not happy with our DFS involvement…but I have come to understand two > things very clearly through all this… > 1. DFS is an entity…not an individual person. DFS is comprised of all > types of people with varying beliefs. I don’t like them all, but by God, I > like a whole lot of them and realize that they are doing a job…and many of > htem don’t like what they sometimes have to do. > 2. I’ve been through a lot…but not nearly as much as of yet as some, and > somehow I feel that it is worth it…why? Because though there may be no > need for DFS’s involvement with my family, how do THEY know that? And how > many other families have benfitted greatly from the same program that I now > have? > I know this statement is going to burn some asses here…and that is ok, I’m > going to make it anyway…I don’t feel like we are being mistreated by > DFS…I feel like they are doing an excellent job at seeking out who needs > services and who doesn’t and if my time and efforts help them make that > determination and any one family is saved by their efforts, then what I am > going through is worth it. > Sure, it’s hard, no, it REALLY FUCKING SUCKS sometimes…Baby is up all > night crying because he has gas just when DFS is due to arrive in four hours > and have not had any sleep, and don’t feel like having anyone around, or I > might be trying to cook dinner with a worker in the house, it’s not always > fun…but I HAVE learned a few things! I’ve raised five kids and STILL I > learned something from the last 5 weeks of the program. > These workers have been a sounding board for me, a source of information, > have been HELPFUL around the house when I need to run downstairs and do a > load of laundry or whatever by watching baby, and I like what these ladies > do…they have very nice personalities, they try to help families overcome > obstacles, and they adovocate for the families that deserve it. And they > CAN because they are in such close contact that they actually KNOW me. > Unfortunately there are the DFS workers who think they are on a crusade to > save the children. They are sneaky and twist your words and take every > action and make it into something that it’s not. They have an agenda, and > usually that agenda is to get the child out of it’s family and into a ‘nice > decent’ home…adopted. > It is very sad for the children that these workers do not realize what they > are doing…I can see how 20 years of seeing abused and neglected children > would make a person so jaded, but at the same time, it should also give them > the skills necessary to see when a child lives within a family that only > needs some help…and adoption need not be an option. > I really hate to read about someone, like yourself, who got hung up on > technicalities, bullshit, because that is not the way things are supposed to > work, but I realize that we don’t live in a perfect world. > Sorry to have written so much…but your post prompted me! (so it’s all > your fault ha ha ha ) > Take care, > Witchy
I don’t think for a second that DSS (I’ll use a generic term, Departement of Social Services) shouldn’t exist. I think it’s necessary. My problem is with the way some aspects of it work and that accountability is just about nil. In any task undertaken on a mass basis mistakes WILL be made. But in this case it’s children and families that are on the line. WHEN mistakes are made they should be seriously addressed, because so much is on the line. In my case in particular the CPS worker lost her job when all was said and done, but there were several more players who were much more malicious that escaped scott-free. I should also mention that CPS policies in my state were changed as a direct result of my case, and I have been influential in changes in the laws, but I am the exception. My family was able to financially rebound (almost), and I was fortunate enough to know the right people to start putting reforms in place. Many who are wrongly accused do not have thos luxuries. I do also think DSS does a fine job, but when a mistake is made it is usually the children or the families that are swept under the rug to cover it up.
Response:
"Mark" <m…@ivalenti.com> wrote in message
news:4551191c.0411290950.1b96447c@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> pohakuyakok…@yahoo.com (kane) wrote in message > <news:f77b8b6e.0411261846.1ea0cf2e@posting.google.com>… >> On 26 Nov 2004 22:12:58 GMT, fern5…@aol.com (Fern5827) wrote: >> >>The baby’s maternal grandmother, Sharon Leonardo, said he would >> still >> >>be alive if DCF had listened to the many pleas she made >> >>when she saw counselors in the month before Tyler’s death. Documents >> >>released by the agency show she tried to convince the >> >>agency that her daughter could not properly care for Tyler and twice >> >>called the agency in the two weeks before he died, but DCF >> >>never returned the calls. >> They did not have sufficient evidence to obtain a warrant, nor >> establish probable cause. > I don’t know the specifics of this case in their entirety, but I > assure you, they do not need sufficient evidence, at least not in my > state. They simply need the word of a CPS worker. > The judge who signed the order in my case admitted that all she went > on and all that is required is the word of a CPS worker. I pray that > other states are different, but here, if a CPS worker wants a child, > for any reason, they get that child.
Mark, It’s pretty much the same in every state. DFS has no trouble finding a reason to remove a child from their home. New laws are coming into effect that will serve to make that much harder for them to do, but in the mean time, not every state has statutes that would prevent this kind of thing. I have, at times, been very angry about the actions of DFS, not only in country wide, but in my own family as well. I try very hard to step back and look at the big picture…though at times it is extremely hard to do. I am currently in the middle of a case with DFS (my daughter’s child, I petitioned the court for custody and intervention and came out with intervention and physical custody only) and at this time I am doing a family reunification program that requires a social worker (we used to call them ‘home maker workers’) in my home from 7 to 10 hours per week. In addition, I attend family support team meetings every two weeks, and court hearings when necessary (all while raising the infant in question, raising a 15 year old, providing home and support for a 19 year old son and daughter in law, actively helping to raise a 12 year old and 11 year old of my own who live with their father in a neighboring town, and managing a business while trying to keep up with my husbands needs…he thinks I’m still his secretary sometimes I believe LOL….I’m pretty busy) Sometimes I feel ‘picked on’. Sometimes I wonder if there is an ‘agenda’ that I don’t know about, sometimes I am very comfortable with the situation…I guess it just depends on what kind of day I am having (today was a nasty one…lots to do and someone stole a brand new four wheeler from us last night…we had only owned it for about 25 hours before the theft occurred! So that makes for a rotten day!) We have spent more money on trying to keep this child out of foster care than I can even count now…though the total it somewhere around $6K now (in four months) but the time spent worrying and fretting over him while he spent 7 weeks in foster care was the worst. I’m not happy with our DFS involvement…but I have come to understand two things very clearly through all this… 1. DFS is an entity…not an individual person. DFS is comprised of all types of people with varying beliefs. I don’t like them all, but by God, I like a whole lot of them and realize that they are doing a job…and many of htem don’t like what they sometimes have to do. 2. I’ve been through a lot…but not nearly as much as of yet as some, and somehow I feel that it is worth it…why? Because though there may be no need for DFS’s involvement with my family, how do THEY know that? And how many other families have benfitted greatly from the same program that I now have? I know this statement is going to burn some asses here…and that is ok, I’m going to make it anyway…I don’t feel like we are being mistreated by DFS…I feel like they are doing an excellent job at seeking out who needs services and who doesn’t and if my time and efforts help them make that determination and any one family is saved by their efforts, then what I am going through is worth it. Sure, it’s hard, no, it REALLY FUCKING SUCKS sometimes…Baby is up all night crying because he has gas just when DFS is due to arrive in four hours and have not had any sleep, and don’t feel like having anyone around, or I might be trying to cook dinner with a worker in the house, it’s not always fun…but I HAVE learned a few things! I’ve raised five kids and STILL I learned something from the last 5 weeks of the program. These workers have been a sounding board for me, a source of information, have been HELPFUL around the house when I need to run downstairs and do a load of laundry or whatever by watching baby, and I like what these ladies do…they have very nice personalities, they try to help families overcome obstacles, and they adovocate for the families that deserve it. And they CAN because they are in such close contact that they actually KNOW me. Unfortunately there are the DFS workers who think they are on a crusade to save the children. They are sneaky and twist your words and take every action and make it into something that it’s not. They have an agenda, and usually that agenda is to get the child out of it’s family and into a ‘nice decent’ home…adopted. It is very sad for the children that these workers do not realize what they are doing…I can see how 20 years of seeing abused and neglected children would make a person so jaded, but at the same time, it should also give them the skills necessary to see when a child lives within a family that only needs some help…and adoption need not be an option. I really hate to read about someone, like yourself, who got hung up on technicalities, bullshit, because that is not the way things are supposed to work, but I realize that we don’t live in a perfect world. Sorry to have written so much…but your post prompted me! (so it’s all your fault ha ha ha ) Take care, Witchy
Response:
"WitchWirsen" <johncwir…@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:X4Uqd.487663$D%.288263@attbi_s51… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Mark" <m…@ivalenti.com> wrote in message > news:4551191c.0411290950.1b96447c@posting.google.com… > > pohakuyakok…@yahoo.com (kane) wrote in message > > <news:f77b8b6e.0411261846.1ea0cf2e@posting.google.com>… > >> On 26 Nov 2004 22:12:58 GMT, fern5…@aol.com (Fern5827) wrote: > >> >>The baby’s maternal grandmother, Sharon Leonardo, said he would > >> still > >> >>be alive if DCF had listened to the many pleas she made > >> >>when she saw counselors in the month before Tyler’s death. Documents > >> >>released by the agency show she tried to convince the > >> >>agency that her daughter could not properly care for Tyler and twice > >> >>called the agency in the two weeks before he died, but DCF > >> >>never returned the calls. > >> They did not have sufficient evidence to obtain a warrant, nor > >> establish probable cause. > > I don’t know the specifics of this case in their entirety, but I > > assure you, they do not need sufficient evidence, at least not in my > > state. They simply need the word of a CPS worker. > > The judge who signed the order in my case admitted that all she went > > on and all that is required is the word of a CPS worker. I pray that > > other states are different, but here, if a CPS worker wants a child, > > for any reason, they get that child. > Mark, > It’s pretty much the same in every state. DFS has no trouble finding a > reason to remove a child from their home. > New laws are coming into effect that will serve to make that much harder for > them to do, but in the mean time, not every state has statutes that would > prevent this kind of thing. > I have, at times, been very angry about the actions of DFS, not only in > country wide, but in my own family as well. I try very hard to step back > and look at the big picture…though at times it is extremely hard to do. > I am currently in the middle of a case with DFS (my daughter’s child, I > petitioned the court for custody and intervention and came out with > intervention and physical custody only) and at this time I am doing a family > reunification program that requires a social worker (we used to call them > ‘home maker workers’) in my home from 7 to 10 hours per week. > In addition, I attend family support team meetings every two weeks, and > court hearings when necessary (all while raising the infant in question, > raising a 15 year old, providing home and support for a 19 year old son and > daughter in law, actively helping to raise a 12 year old and 11 year old of > my own who live with their father in a neighboring town, and managing a > business while trying to keep up with my husbands needs…he thinks I’m > still his secretary sometimes I believe LOL….I’m pretty busy) > Sometimes I feel ‘picked on’. Sometimes I wonder if there is an ‘agenda’ > that I don’t know about, sometimes I am very comfortable with the > situation…I guess it just depends on what kind of day I am having (today > was a nasty one…lots to do and someone stole a brand new four wheeler from > us last night…we had only owned it for about 25 hours before the theft > occurred! So that makes for a rotten day!) > We have spent more money on trying to keep this child out of foster care > than I can even count now…though the total it somewhere around $6K now (in > four months) but the time spent worrying and fretting over him while he > spent 7 weeks in foster care was the worst. > I’m not happy with our DFS involvement…but I have come to understand two > things very clearly through all this… > 1. DFS is an entity…not an individual person. DFS is comprised of all > types of people with varying beliefs. I don’t like them all, but by God, I > like a whole lot of them and realize that they are doing a job…and many of > htem don’t like what they sometimes have to do. > 2. I’ve been through a lot…but not nearly as much as of yet as some, and > somehow I feel that it is worth it…why? Because though there may be no > need for DFS’s involvement with my family, how do THEY know that? And how > many other families have benfitted greatly from the same program that I now > have? > I know this statement is going to burn some asses here…and that is ok, I’m > going to make it anyway…I don’t feel like we are being mistreated by > DFS…I feel like they are doing an excellent job at seeking out who needs > services and who doesn’t and if my time and efforts help them make that > determination and any one family is saved by their efforts, then what I am > going through is worth it. > Sure, it’s hard, no, it REALLY FUCKING SUCKS sometimes…Baby is up all > night crying because he has gas just when DFS is due to arrive in four hours > and have not had any sleep, and don’t feel like having anyone around, or I > might be trying to cook dinner with a worker in the house, it’s not always > fun…but I HAVE learned a few things! I’ve raised five kids and STILL I > learned something from the last 5 weeks of the program. > These workers have been a sounding board for me, a source of information, > have been HELPFUL around the house when I need to run downstairs and do a > load of laundry or whatever by watching baby, and I like what these ladies > do…they have very nice personalities, they try to help families overcome > obstacles, and they adovocate for the families that deserve it. And they > CAN because they are in such close contact that they actually KNOW me. > Unfortunately there are the DFS workers who think they are on a crusade to > save the children. They are sneaky and twist your words and take every > action and make it into something that it’s not. They have an agenda, and > usually that agenda is to get the child out of it’s family and into a ‘nice > decent’ home…adopted. > It is very sad for the children that these workers do not realize what they > are doing…I can see how 20 years of seeing abused and neglected children > would make a person so jaded, but at the same time, it should also give them > the skills necessary to see when a child lives within a family that only > needs some help…and adoption need not be an option. > I really hate to read about someone, like yourself, who got hung up on > technicalities, bullshit, because that is not the way things are supposed to > work, but I realize that we don’t live in a perfect world. > Sorry to have written so much…but your post prompted me! (so it’s all > your fault ha ha ha ) > Take care, > Witchy
Oh my, Class, see Johnny Witch go self-aggrandizing? Such a classic display of unbridled egotism. Class, please do note Johnny Witch’s excessive use of the singular first person pronoun. A total variant of 37 times in this one post. Perhaps the Sockie is married to Kane? Mrs. G
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DCF official resigns following death of Vero Beach baby an Associated Press report 11/25/04 VERO BEACH – A Department of Children & Families administrator has resigned after the death of a 6-month-old Vero Beach baby whose mother confessed to punching him and tossing him down a hallway. Tyler Villines died of head trauma on Nov. 15. Police said his mother, Kimberly Villines, who has been described in court as slightly mentally retarded, confessed to punching him in the back of the head twice and throwing him down a hallway because he would not stop crying. Villines, a 29-year-old single mother, was arrested on a charge of first-degree murder by aggravated child abuses. She is being held without bail in the Indian River County jail. Gary Pettit, who oversaw the protective investigations unit for the DCF district that includes Martin, St. Lucie, Indian River and Okeechobee counties, resigned Wednesday. He could not be reached for comment. Vern Melvin, the DCF district administrator, in a statement called Tyler’s death "a tragedy and our hearts are saddened." "I immediately directed my staff to begin reviewing the circumstances surrounding this case, and it appears that we attempted to reduce the risk to the child by providing multiple services to the family," he said. DCF said it must move more quickly in situations involving high risk to children and focus on the child’s needs, not what the parent wants. The baby’s maternal grandmother, Sharon Leonardo, said he would still be alive if DCF had listened to the many pleas she made when she saw counselors in the month before Tyler’s death. Documents released by the agency show she tried to convince the agency that her daughter could not properly care for Tyler and twice called the agency in the two weeks before he died, but DCF never returned the calls. "These people would not listen to me," Leonardo said Wednesday. "I got looks from them like, ‘You’re crazy, lady."’ Villines’ oldest child, 3-year-old Savannah, was removed from the home a few years ago and now lives with a relative, Leonardo said. Tyler was taken to the emergency room on June 27 after Villines said she dropped him while bathing him in a sink. The baby suffered a bruise over his right eye and was given Tylenol. Leonardo offered to help care for the child, but Villines would not accept help from relatives. On July 2, DCF investigators closed a complaint that Leonardo had made on May 6, two days after Tyler’s birth. Records show they did not contact Leonardo. Another abuse report was filed Oct. 4 but Leonardo said she did not make it. When investigators called her, she told them her daughter "has no patience with the baby" but Villines "needs a chance and help from the right people to teach her to raise her child." The investigation led to counselors visiting Villines every four days for an hour or two from Oct. 8 until Nov. 8, observing the mother and teaching her to be more responsible. Leonardo worried that the extra help was not working, and called DCF at least twice in November to tell them that Tyler should be placed with a relative. Records show the calls were not returned and Villines missed her next appointment with the counselors on Nov. 13. Tyler died two days later. Defend your civil liberties! Get information at http://www.aclu.org, become a member at http://www.aclu.org/join and get active at http://www.aclu.org/action.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The baby’s maternal grandmother, Sharon Leonardo, said he would still >be alive if DCF had listened to the many pleas she made >when she saw counselors in the month before Tyler’s death. Documents >released by the agency show she tried to convince the >agency that her daughter could not properly care for Tyler and twice >called the agency in the two weeks before he died, but DCF >never returned the calls. >"These people would not listen to me," Leonardo said Wednesday. "I got >looks from them like, ‘You’re crazy, lady."’ >Villines’ oldest child, 3-year-old Savannah, was removed from the home >a few years ago and now lives with a relative, Leonardo >said. >Tyler was taken to the emergency room on June 27 after Villines said >she dropped him while bathing him in a sink. The baby >suffered a bruise over his right eye and was given Tylenol. Leonardo >offered to help care for the child, but Villines would not accept >help from relatives. >On July 2, DCF investigators closed a complaint that Leonardo had made >on May 6, two days after Tyler’s birth. Records show they >did not contact Leonardo. >Another abuse report was filed Oct. 4 but Leonardo said she did not >make it. When investigators called her, she told them her >daughter "has no patience with the baby" but Villines "needs a chance >and help from the right people to teach her to raise her child." >The investigation led to counselors visiting Villines every four days >for an hour or two from Oct. 8 until Nov. 8, observing the mother >and teaching her to be more responsible. Leonardo worried that the >extra help was not working, and called DCF at least twice in >November to tell them that Tyler should be placed with a relative. >Records show the calls were not returned and Villines missed her next >appointment with the counselors on Nov. 13. Tyler died two >days later.
How often we hear that scenario. DCF just will not listen. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Defend your civil liberties! Get information at http://www.aclu.org, become >a member at http://www.aclu.org/join and get active at >http://www.aclu.org/action.
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On 26 Nov 2004 22:12:58 GMT, fern5…@aol.com (Fern5827) wrote: >>The baby’s maternal grandmother, Sharon Leonardo, said he would still >>be alive if DCF had listened to the many pleas she made >>when she saw counselors in the month before Tyler’s death. Documents >>released by the agency show she tried to convince the >>agency that her daughter could not properly care for Tyler and twice >>called the agency in the two weeks before he died, but DCF >>never returned the calls.
They did not have sufficient evidence to obtain a warrant, nor establish probable cause. >>"These people would not listen to me," Leonardo said Wednesday. "I got >>looks from them like, ‘You’re crazy, lady."’
More likely, "You’re crazy, lady, unless you’ll make far more committment to be involved, and provide us with sufficient evidence to obtain a warrant as your daugher is denying us entry because she’s been to alt.support.child-protective-services and knows her rights. She has a consultant named greegor that is thinking of moving in. >>Villines’ oldest child, 3-year-old Savannah, was removed from the home >>a few years ago and now lives with a relative, Leonardo >>said. >>Tyler was taken to the emergency room on June 27 after Villines said >>she dropped him while bathing him in a sink. The baby >>suffered a bruise over his right eye and was given Tylenol. Leonardo >>offered to help care for the child, but Villines would not accept >>help from relatives.
And according to landmark case in WA state caselaw establishes her constitutional right to refuse relatives access to the child. >>On July 2, DCF investigators closed a complaint that Leonardo had made >>on May 6, two days after Tyler’s birth. Records show they >>did not contact Leonardo. >>Another abuse report was filed Oct. 4 but Leonardo said she did not >>make it. When investigators called her, she told them her >>daughter "has no patience with the baby" but Villines "needs a chance >>and help from the right people to teach her to raise her child."
Now there’s a solid bit of evidence to require the mother to allow CPS entry and examination of the baby. >>The investigation led to counselors visiting Villines every four days >>for an hour or two from Oct. 8 until Nov. 8, observing the mother >>and teaching her to be more responsible. Leonardo worried that the >>extra help was not working, and called DCF at least twice in >>November to tell them that Tyler should be placed with a relative.
And we are treated yet again to no mention of evidence that CPS can actually act upon according to law. They can ask, they cannot force. >>Records show the calls were not returned and Villines missed her next >>appointment with the counselors on Nov. 13. Tyler died two >>days later. >How often we hear that scenario. DCF just will not listen.
Nothing in the "scenario" says they will not listen. It says there was insufficient evidence for them to move to an investigation in a way the mother would have to allow entry. Do you see even anything other than the one bump over the eye, something YOU’d be screaming "violation of civil rights" if CPS pressed beyond? Kids get bumps all the time. No OTHER injuries were reported by anyone..not the gmother, not the therapist…just "I think." Do you wish to have CPS empowered to force entry and examination because relatives and therapists say "I think?" >>Defend your civil liberties! Get information at
http://www.aclu.org, become >>a member at http://www.aclu.org/join and get active at >>http://www.aclu.org/action.
Now THAT’s a gas. The civil liberties of the murderous mother were protected and defended by CPS. It’s just another swing in response to the political pressure of assholes such as you, Fern. You don’t care in which direction you push, as long as CPS has to over react from political pressure, do you? You need those bloody booted "INDICATORS." This murderous mother, should she be convicted, was doing absolutely nothing in this article’s version, that YOU, any of you twit squad quad would have approved removal over, and you would have screamed your heads off over a removal for the "maybe’s" and "she lacks patience." AND SHE WAS GETTING UPFRONT SERVICES SO SHE COULD KEEP HER BABY…a much revered action you folks criticize if missing…funding shortage or not. By the way, did you happen to notice there was no foster parent involvement here, except a relative for an older child some years earlier? So, Fern. Not even a "Yeah! CPS, you placed with a relative and saved one?" Kane
Response:
The investigation led to counselors visiting Villines every four days >>for an hour or two from Oct. 8 until Nov. 8
That’s a pretty intensive amount of work for one case…obviosly CPS did take the siuaiton seriously, if counsellors were visiting that often… but again, Fern woudl have us belive that CPS should have predicted what the mothe was going to do–of course CPS shouldn’t have used any Risk Assessment..because that woudl be without merit…so the posters here belive… Can’t it ever just be the parents responsibility?
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When Social Workers deal with Mentally Retarded people, they often LABEL the person as, for example, mildly retarded, and they see NO NEED to seek any labels for what might be very serious Emotional or Psychiatric pathology on top of the retardation. Once they can apply one LABEL and fit the person into some little box on a bureaucratic form, other, possibly dangerous ailments may well be never diagnosed or documented. Lots of retarded people would NEVER do the violent things to a baby that this woman did. I don’t think the retardation is the root of this problem. The bureaucratic problem of one LABEL concealing another is the root here.
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raggetyanne writes: > The investigation led to counselors visiting Villines every four days > >>for an hour or two from Oct. 8 until Nov. 8 > That’s a pretty intensive amount of work for one case…obviosly CPS > did take the siuaiton seriously, if counsellors were visiting that > often…
Hi, Raggetyanne! Absolutely. There was no problem with evidence or probable cause or motivation of CPS in making this intervention. The agency had determined there was something wrong and was providing intensive services. The problem in our country is that the same inherent practice malfunction causes CPS to both remove non-injured children who should never have been removed and leave childen who have been injured in the home. The concern is not whether the child has been hurt, but the willingness of the parents to accept CPS services. Removal is the "hammer" to motivate families to accept services. If the parents accept CPS services, the children stay. If parents of children who CPS has determined has not been abused or neglected do not accept services, the children are removed. The reason this case is upsetting is that the child involved was injured but not removed. This is commonplace, even though actual injuries are rare in substantiated child abuse/neglect investigations. The Canadian Medical Association Journal reports that less than 9% of children involved in investigations in Canada had any injuries at all. 18% of all substantiated cases involved any injury to a child, and most of these were minor bruises (Tromue, et. al., 2003). Only 4% of those children involved in the 3,780 substantiated cases sampled required medical attention. Most injuries were noted in substantiated physical abuse cases, of course, but injuries were noted on less than 8% of child subjects in sexual abuse, emotional abuse, neglect and other substantiated cases. While domestic violence is a big concern of child protective agencies in both of our countries, children were injured in less than 1% of cases substantiated on that basis in Canada. So what is of concern in this article is that an injured child was left in the home with services. In more than 90,000 cases, uninjured children were removed from homes CPS had unsubstantiated for either risk of or actual child neglect/abuse. > but again, Fern woudl have us belive that CPS should have predicted > what the mothe was going to do–of course CPS shouldn’t have used any > Risk Assessment..because that woudl be without merit…so the posters > here belive…
I don’t think predicting is required. My understanding is that the child was injured and had a bruise prior to CPS providing counseling services. > Can’t it ever just be the parents responsibility?
The child abuse is the parent’s responsibility. What the caseworkers did about it was CPS’s responsibility. Doug SOURCE: Trocme, Nico, et. al. (2003). Nature and severity of phsyical harm caused by child abuse and neglect: Results from the Canadian Incidence Study. Canadian Medical Association Journal 169(9), October 28, p 911-915.
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