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Marechal Foch info?

Question:

<Finally; in the hands of a skilled grower & a skilled winemaker, Foch can produce a formidable Burgundian style full-bodied red wine which will benefit from judicious aging So far the two examples, VA and NH, that I have tried have done fine with age. It has a unique taste, but not foxy like a native grape. Michael What a Long Strange Trip it’s been

Response:

…snip… Unfortunately, the growers always want to pick early, before the birds and rains come in and ruin the crop.  We winemakers want to pick when the fruit is _ripe_. …snip…

Tom: The French/American hybrids would absolutely drive you crazy!  They tend to ripen EXTREMELY unevenly.  I have seen berries in the same _cluster_ of Baco Noir have a sugar difference of 8 Brix!! (Brix 15 & Brix 23). As a result of this chaos, it is almost impossible to pick these varieties at the "optimum" ripeness. -Ed — "Wine is sunlight, held together by water…"  -Louis Pasteur

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A couple of final things… -For information of the vinification of Foch see the May 16th thread "Marechal Foch Receipt Needed" posted to this NG. -The name "Marechal Foch" is an homage to the French WWI war hero Marshall (Marechal) Ferdinan Foch (BTW, Foch rhymes with "gauche" – [the French word for "left"].) -Ed P.S.:  Keep supporting those local wineries & varieties!! — "Wine is sunlight, held together by water…"  -Louis Pasteur

Response:

Ed, You didn’t mention whether the Burgundian style comes from the carbonic maceration technique or from some other handling.

I think that it is a combination of Foch’s fine performance under carbonic maceration & its tendency to produce fairly low grape tannin levels (like Pinot Noir). We made our first harvest Foch wine last year and the acids were too high and required ML to get them into line. It’s still too early to tell where it’s headed, but I agree that an extended stay in American oak would be a good idea. I’d have to say that the result is looking like it will be more like a Bordeaux style though. I was concerned about the levels of tannins while fermenting and ended up pressing much sooner than I normally would, about 1.040.

Paul:  In Burgundy both Foch (considered a "less favored" addition) & Leon Millot (considered a "very favored" addition) are permitted in the official red Burgundy blend (in small % only) due to their ability to lend color WITHOUT excessive tannins.  This can often save the vintage when the Pinot Noir has deficient color. In the future you might want to consider extending your skin contact (particularly if you are excluding stems), as Foch should not not deliver much additional tannins after color extraction. Colour is still very high, and expected fruitiness did not develop.

Maybe high fermentation temps are the culpret here?  The Burgundians are fairly vehement about keeping the temps down (to promote fruitiness) after an initial few days of high temps to extract color. Finally; because both Foch & Millot may have some Pinot Noir in them, it is very important to consider the "clonal" characteristics of your vines.  IOW, your Foch may perform very differently than your neighbor’s based upon where you got your cuttings & where he got his.  If possible, you might want to trace your vines back & see how their colonal parents performed during vinification. As a matter of fact; it is now generally recognized that there are 2 distinct Leon Millot clones:  The "Wagner" or "Boordy" clone (ripening with Foch) & the "Foster" clone (ripening about a week earlier & considered superior). Thanks: -Ed — "Wine is sunlight, held together by water…"  -Louis Pasteur

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: Hope This Helps: It does, and thanks very much.  There are several acres of this grape planted next to the Airle winery near where I live.  The area seems to favor German whites, but I gather from your notes that the Marechal Fock grape does well in a similar climate, which is probably why they are working with it. Pinot Noir also does well around here, but in slightly warmer areas of the valley I think. It appears to me that Oregon wineries are where California ones were 20 or 30 years ago.  They are still feeling out what they can grow and what folks will drink.  I’m doing my best to support them… ;-) –arne DISCLAIMER:  These opinions and statements are those of the author and do not represent any views or positions of the Hewlett-Packard Co. : "A votre Sante Professeur Kuhlmann" : Ed : — : "Wine is sunlight, held together by water…" :  -Louis Pasteur

Response:

Tom, Seems like a bit more hang time would have been nice.  These numbers sound like not-quite-ripe fruit.  Also, pressing _after_ dryness (say, 2 weeks?) might have given the harsh tannins time to be reabsorbed by the skins and/or polymerized.

We checked Brix in the field and it showed 24 in a 100 random berry sample. However when the mass was picked it was more like 23. On reflection, we’d have let it hang for another week or two, we had the time and weather. Oh well, it was our first harvest, live and learn. In spite of the early pressing, the colour is intense. Do you have any information on the issue of reabsorption of tannins or polymerization? I made a Cab from Yakima this last year and let it sit on the skins for almost 50 days. It turned out to be one of the best balanced wines I’ve ever made. The colour is perfect, fruit level high, tannins are soft yet definitely there in abundance. I can hardly wait for it to emerge from the oak next year. I also let that one go through ML during the long soak time so ML was almost finished when I pressed. Paul

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I’m curious about the origin of this grape.  I’d never heard of it until I moved to Oregon.  Two local wineries produce a red wine with it which isn’t quite like anything else I’ve ever had. It seems to do rather well in the local (Willamette Valley… For complete information on Foch please see: http://bigvax.alfred.edu/~hawkins/wgg.html#marechal Moreover; here are some additional random thoughts: -Dr. Eugene Kuhlmann, an early 20th Century Alsacian viticulturist, is responsible for 2 of the highest quality red-wine…French/American …Marechal Foch (Kuhlmann188-2) & Leon Millot (Kuhlmann 194-2).

Nice posting, good information.  In my experience in using both of these grapes, I prefer Leon Millot to Foch.  Both seem to be more sensitive to oxidation, compared to more popular reds (Cabernet for example). Both also are difficult (if that’s the right word) to keep to full ripeness. (Mostly between birds and weather I think) The farther from full ripeness, the lower quality potential or harder it is to make quality wine from them.  This certainly is true for all grapes, but I think it is worse with the French/American Hybrids (including or especially Fock and Leon Millot). Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

We made our first harvest Foch wine last year and the acids were too high and required ML to get them into line.

I was concerned about the levels of tannins while fermenting and ended up pressing much sooner than I normally would, about 1.040. Colour is still very high, and expected fruitiness did not develop. It’s fairly hard dark tannic acidic (falling due to ML) wine. As I said in an earlier post, Brix 23, TA 8.6 ph 3.18.

Seems like a bit more hang time would have been nice.  These numbers sound like not-quite-ripe fruit.  Also, pressing _after_ dryness (say, 2 weeks?) might have given the harsh tannins time to be reabsorbed by the skins and/or polymerized. Unfortunately, the growers always want to pick early, before the birds and rains come in and ruin the crop.  We winemakers want to pick when the fruit is _ripe_.  I’ve found that the best solution is to ride the coat tails of one of the big, _quality_ wineries.  They have enough clout to call the shots when it comes to time to pick, and they’ll tend to pick when it’s right. Tom S Tom S

Response:

Ed, You didn’t mention whether the Burgundian style comes from the carbonic maceration technique or from some other handling. We made our first harvest Foch wine last year and the acids were too high and required ML to get them into line. It’s still too early to tell where it’s headed, but I agree that an extended stay in American oak would be a good idea. I’d have to say that the result is looking like it will be more like a Bordeaux style though. I was concerned about the levels of tannins while fermenting and ended up pressing much sooner than I normally would, about 1.040. Colour is still very high, and expected fruitiness did not develop. It’s fairly hard dark tannic acidic (falling due to ML) wine. As I said in an earlier post, Brix 23, TA 8.6 ph 3.18. We have great hopes for using this grape as the base for a blend of some sort, perhaps with Dornfelder, St.Laurent, Zweigelt and maybe a touch of something like Schonberger or some Muscat to bring in a bit of fruit. Paul

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I’m curious about the origin of this grape.  I’d never heard of it until I moved to Oregon.  Two local wineries produce a red wine with it which isn’t quite like anything else I’ve ever had. It seems to do rather well in the local (Willamette Valley) climate. Thanks, –arne DISCLAIMER:  These opinions and statements are those of the author and do not represent any views or positions of the Hewlett-Packard Co.

Arne: For complete information on Foch please see: http://bigvax.alfred.edu/~hawkins/wgg.html#marechal Moreover; here are some additional random thoughts: -Dr. Eugene Kuhlmann, an early 20th Century Alsacian viticulturist, is responsible for 2 of the highest quality red-wine producing French/American hybrids:  Marechal Foch (Kuhlmann188-2) & Leon Millot (Kuhlmann 194-2). -Foch has very small berries & tight clusters. -Foch is very early ripening.  (Early September in NE Ohio [2,500 heat summation units - probably not disimilar to the heat index in the Willamette Valley]). -The average period from bloom to harvest for Foch is only 80 days.  (This means that she will be harvested about 80 days after the average daily temperature of the growing sight hits 68F) -Foch offers excellent natural resistance to the phylloxera as well as most of the major grape fungus diseases.  The only major threat is Powdery Mildew, to which Foch is moderately susceptible. -Foch is very sensitive to Sulfur, so growers should not use sulfur for Powdery mildew control. -Foch should be grown in short season, cool climate growing areas.  In long season areas (say 2800+ heat summation units) the late Summer temperatures will be too high as the grapes ripen & the harvest will be prone to dangerously high pHs. -Birds love Foch unlike any other grape. -Foch can probably trace her ancestry back to Gamay & Goldriesling, via Riparia & Rupestris. -As a wine, Foch takes very well to carbonic masceration.  (This technique might be responsible for your perception that the Foch you have tasted "isn’t quite like anything else you’ve ever had".) -Finally; in the hands of a skilled grower & a skilled winemaker, Foch can produce a formidable Burgundian style full-bodied red wine which will benefit from judicious aging in American, French or (rumoured to be best of all) Slovakian oak. Hope This Helps: "A votre Sante Professeur Kuhlmann" Ed — "Wine is sunlight, held together by water…"  -Louis Pasteur

Response:

I’m curious about the origin of this grape.  I’d never heard of it until I moved to Oregon.  Two local wineries produce a red wine with it which isn’t quite like anything else I’ve ever had. It seems to do rather well in the local (Willamette Valley) climate. Thanks, –arne DISCLAIMER:  These opinions and statements are those of the author and do not represent any views or positions of the Hewlett-Packard Co.

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