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Yet another shooting

Question:

I know this is off topic but after yet another high school shooting I have really gotten myself worked up and would like to express an opinion =) Id want to say first that I in no way agree with what these kids are doing,it is never ok to just start shooting people because your angry. BUT I really do feel a bit of sympathy for them.How horribly these kids must have been treated at school by classmates to have done this.Now I am not very old but when I was in school I saw many kids teased everyday,I being a far less cruel person always took to becomeing friends with these kids.I saw what they went through,I was teased from time to time as well having been on the poor side of the tracks but never as bad as these other kids were.People would hit them,spit on them,kick them,push them,call them every hurtful cruel thing they could think of and even beat them up from time to time.People who didnt really feel it was right would let it happen because they were afraid of loseing popularity with their classmates and being treated in the same way.They were all to afraid of standing up for what they believed in that they let these most popular kids do anything they want. Im sure we’ve all seen a talk show at least once where the topic was "My kid is being harrassed at school"  and the parents of the bully walk on stage and start babbaling about how it is only constructive critisism or that what their child is doing will benefit his vicitim by making him change the way he is or making him stronger.It disgusts me that a parent would stand up for their kid on such horrible behavior.What are they thinking??Are they simply to proud to admit that they messed up with raiseing their child so far?? Or do these people really honestly believe that what their child is doing is ok?   My violent side steps out and makes me wanna slap them all silly until they start teaching their children the basic things that are needed to be a productive member of society. *sigh*     I can see why these shooters turned and finally stood up for themselves,I dont agree with it in anyway but after seeing alot of this myself I can see why they did. Today for example the boy had intended to shoot 1 person in general they say,then they say that the star high school football player had been shot twice in the thigh he other 5 people had only  been shot once and all below the knee. My take on what might have happened is that the big football start was teasing the boy and the boy went in there not to kill him really but to injure him,to take away his popularity maybe by taking away his ability to play football?? Just an idea  But most times it seems to be the jocks or the rich kids who think they are better then the fat funny looking smart kid,and they seem to think that their status gives them the right to torture other people for no reason and on a very daily basis for years. To many parents out there who need to seek out a good parents training support group or something.Its ok to admit that what you are doing or have done with your child is wrong,if you can admit it then you can stop and try something else.If you go around trying not to think about it or pretending your doing it right then you end up with these problems. Getting parents involved more in school will do nothing….. Only changeing the way they deal with their children in private will give us hope. Also way to many parents just seem to pay absolutely no attention to what is going on in their kids lives,they naturally assume their child couldnt possibly be doing anything wrong and so they let their kids raise themselves(high school kids) They are PARENTS!!!! Their job is to guide their kids until their kids are adults and on their own,by then they should know whats right and wrong and be strong and confident enough to be good people and do fine on their own.At 16,17,18 they simply arent raised yet. IMO Ok Im gonna stop now hehe Thanks for letting me rant Tanya

Response:

Did it work?  For how long? In article <19990520220631.20828.00003…@ng-cf1.aol.com>, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -litely…@aol.com (Litelyric) wrote: > In 6th grade there was a kid in my class who was a "nerd" – dressed very > formally in a little suit and bowtie every day while all the other boys wore > very casual clothes. The kids in the class all made fun of him, ostracized him > and teased him relentlessly. One day the teacher asked for a volunteer to run > an errand, and he picked the nerdy kid to go. > The teacher then told the class he had deliberately sent  the nerdy kid away so > that he could address the rest of us. He lit into the class for being so mean, > told us how disappointed he was in us, and let us know  he expected us to treat > everyone in the class with kindness and respect. We adored this teacher and I > know every last one of us felt really horrible for our bad behavior and for > disappointing this beloved teacher. > I still remember the entire incident to this day and bad as it made me feel, > I’m really glad this teacher cared enough to stand up for someone who couldn’t > stand up for himself. Wish there were more like him out there. > lite

Response:

Did it work?  For how long?  Do you think it would work on kids now? In article <19990520220631.20828.00003…@ng-cf1.aol.com>, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -litely…@aol.com (Litelyric) wrote: > In 6th grade there was a kid in my class who was a "nerd" – dressed very > formally in a little suit and bowtie every day while all the other boys wore > very casual clothes. The kids in the class all made fun of him, ostracized him > and teased him relentlessly. One day the teacher asked for a volunteer to run > an errand, and he picked the nerdy kid to go. > The teacher then told the class he had deliberately sent  the nerdy kid away so > that he could address the rest of us. He lit into the class for being so mean, > told us how disappointed he was in us, and let us know  he expected us to treat > everyone in the class with kindness and respect. We adored this teacher and I > know every last one of us felt really horrible for our bad behavior and for > disappointing this beloved teacher. > I still remember the entire incident to this day and bad as it made me feel, > I’m really glad this teacher cared enough to stand up for someone who couldn’t > stand up for himself. Wish there were more like him out there. > lite

Response:

In 6th grade there was a kid in my class who was a "nerd" – dressed very formally in a little suit and bowtie every day while all the other boys wore very casual clothes. The kids in the class all made fun of him, ostracized him and teased him relentlessly. One day the teacher asked for a volunteer to run an errand, and he picked the nerdy kid to go. The teacher then told the class he had deliberately sent  the nerdy kid away so that he could address the rest of us. He lit into the class for being so mean, told us how disappointed he was in us, and let us know  he expected us to treat everyone in the class with kindness and respect. We adored this teacher and I know every last one of us felt really horrible for our bad behavior and for disappointing this beloved teacher. I still remember the entire incident to this day and bad as it made me feel, I’m really glad this teacher cared enough to stand up for someone who couldn’t stand up for himself. Wish there were more like him out there. lite

Response:

Yes better teachers and small class sizes help things.In jr high a teacher would see someone being teased and just tell them to stop doing it and expect it to end there.It never does end there and so why dont teachers report those sorts of incidences to the school counsler??Isnt the counsler there to help kids who may have problems getting along with others and to talk to the kids so that maybe this sort of thing doesnt happen? I saw my jr high counsler 1 time in 3 years,high school counsler I never saw at all. But we also need more people like you and me to stand up for those who cant,isnt that what we are supposed to do?  I have always tryed to stand up to people who did those sorts of things even if I took bull for it,who cares what they think.I know what they were doing was wrong,I was right to stand up for them when I could. So I didnt let their warped sense of morals get to me. One boy was very nice about it all and was very grateful,he would occasionally bring me flowers to say thanks for careing. If more kids stand up for whats right instead of whats cool or popular then maybe these sorts of things would stop. *babbles some more but spares you all* =) Tanya

Response:

Well, clearly we should pass a law against students being mean to other students.  That would solve the problem for sure, wouldn’t it? All sarcasm aside, I agree with what you said here.  But how can parents teach their children to be empathic when they speak with them only a few minutes a day?  The whole Jock/Rich/Clique thing comes about because of distant parenting, being supplemented with monetary extravagance in an effort to assuage guilt. Spoiled brats are produced, who feel they are the center of the universe. I can see how some kids would just snap after years of torment at the hands of these people.  Especially when their own parents don’t have time to recognize what’s going on either. All of these problems could be fixed by healthy families.  The problems begin at home, and they could be fixed there as well, if people would only wake up. I saw an editorial cartoon today, where two parents were standing outside of Columbine High just behind the police tape.  One said, "How could God have let this happen?"  The other said, "It’s not his fault.  He hasn’t been allowed in school for years." I do believe eventually things will get better.  But I also believe things will get worse first.  Our society is sick, and only when we gain the collective courage to admit that fact will we ever have any hope of becoming well again. — Amused "Mmmmmmm!  That’s good bass!" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Chris McCullough wrote in message … >I know this is off topic but after yet another high school shooting I have >really gotten myself worked up and would like to express an opinion =) >Id want to say first that I in no way agree with what these kids are >doing,it is never ok to just start shooting people because your angry. >BUT >I really do feel a bit of sympathy for them.How horribly these kids must >have been treated at school by classmates to have done this.Now I am not >very old but when I was in school I saw many kids teased everyday,I being a >far less cruel person always took to becomeing friends with these kids.I saw >what they went through,I was teased from time to time as well having been on >the poor side of the tracks but never as bad as these other kids were.People >would hit them,spit on them,kick them,push them,call them every hurtful >cruel thing they could think of and even beat them up from time to >time.People who didnt really feel it was right would let it happen because >they were afraid of loseing popularity with their classmates and being >treated in the same way.They were all to afraid of standing up for what they >believed in that they let these most popular kids do anything they want. >Im sure we’ve all seen a talk show at least once where the topic was "My kid >is being harrassed at school"  and the parents of the bully walk on stage >and start babbaling about how it is only constructive critisism or that what >their child is doing will benefit his vicitim by making him change the way >he is or making him stronger.It disgusts me that a parent would stand up for >their kid on such horrible behavior.What are they thinking??Are they simply >to proud to admit that they messed up with raiseing their child so far?? Or >do these people really honestly believe that what their child is doing is >ok?   My violent side steps out and makes me wanna slap them all silly until >they start teaching their children the basic things that are needed to be a >productive member of society. *sigh*     I can see why these shooters turned >and finally stood up for themselves,I dont agree with it in anyway but after >seeing alot of this myself I can see why they did. >Today for example the boy had intended to shoot 1 person in general they >say,then they say that the star high school football player had been shot >twice in the thigh he other 5 people had only  been shot once and all below >the knee. My take on what might have happened is that the big football start >was teasing the boy and the boy went in there not to kill him really but to >injure him,to take away his popularity maybe by taking away his ability to >play football?? Just an idea  But most times it seems to be the jocks or the >rich kids who think they are better then the fat funny looking smart kid,and >they seem to think that their status gives them the right to torture other >people for no reason and on a very daily basis for years. >To many parents out there who need to seek out a good parents training >support group or something.Its ok to admit that what you are doing or have >done with your child is wrong,if you can admit it then you can stop and try >something else.If you go around trying not to think about it or pretending >your doing it right then you end up with these problems. Getting parents >involved more in school will do nothing….. Only changeing the way they >deal with their children in private will give us hope. Also way to many >parents just seem to pay absolutely no attention to what is going on in >their kids lives,they naturally assume their child couldnt possibly be doing >anything wrong and so they let their kids raise themselves(high school kids) >They are PARENTS!!!! Their job is to guide their kids until their kids are >adults and on their own,by then they should know whats right and wrong and >be strong and confident enough to be good people and do fine on their own.At >16,17,18 they simply arent raised yet. IMO >Ok Im gonna stop now hehe >Thanks for letting me rant >Tanya

Response:

Arnie, yes it did work. The class didn’t bother the kid again for the rest of the year. I can’t tell you how mortified we were that we had made this teacher so angry and upset. I think it had such an impact because we really liked this teacher and cared what he thought. lite – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Arnie wrote: >Did it work?  For how long?

Response:

I agree. As important as parents are in forming their children’s character, they aren’t with them in school all day and don’t necessarily know what’s going on there. How many kids do you think go home and tell their parents about how they tortured another kid at school that day? Some people insist that our society’s problems stem from women going into the work force instead of staying home with their kids. I used to scoff at that but I’ve thought about it in a new light. I don’t think the problem is that mom isn’t home with the kids, but that with both adults or the only adult in the family  working, there’s no one with the time and opportunity to build and nurture a strong social network with the other families in their neighborhood. Not only that, but they don’t have the need either(at least the need isn’t obvious), since we also have enough technology to allow us to live in the illusion of total self-sufficiency. We only "have" to be nice to people who have something we want, and people’s behavior gets worse and worse. Until things get so bad that we realize we refrain from flipping the bird at someone on the expressway not because we actually care about how we treat strangers, but because we’re afraid. Who knows if that guy is going to be the psycho with the gun? Common courtesy has become a survival tactic – people who avoid enraging, offending and frightening others have a better chance of staying alive. We’re 21st century cavemen. lite (hey, how did I get on this soapbox?) lyric – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Oceanmomma wrote: >How about if teachers are re-trained and include this in their teaching >plans…as simple as it may sound.

Response:

I was the person who always got teased in high school.  I was tall and very thin.  I Didn’t follow trends and was an artist without any sports related talent.  Every day was hell.  They called me string been, freckle ce…the usual mocking the odd one out receives.  I made my own clothing because my parents were (and are) poor.  even my close freinds didn’t understand why I was so full of anger and would lash out at people.  I started drinking when iI was 12..the support just isn’t there at school.  The teacher was one of the people who got me to stand up in front of the class and made fun of what I was wearing, the guidance councilor told the entire staff my problems I had shared with her in confidence. I in NO WAY condone shooting your classmates.  But I wish there were classes for compassion, to teach kids and adults that different doesn’t mean wrong. anyway……. Sandra– "Prayer, the last refuge of a scoundrel", Lisa Simpson. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Chris McCullough wrote in message … >Yes better teachers and small class sizes help things.In jr high a teacher >would see someone being teased and just tell them to stop doing it and >expect it to end there.It never does end there and so why dont teachers >report those sorts of incidences to the school counsler??Isnt the counsler >there to help kids who may have problems getting along with others and to >talk to the kids so that maybe this sort of thing doesnt happen? I saw my jr >high counsler 1 time in 3 years,high school counsler I never saw at all.

Response:

>From: "Amused" >Well, clearly we should pass a law against students being mean to other >students.  That would solve the problem for sure, wouldn’t it?

How about if teachers are re-trained and include this in their teaching plans…as simple as it may sound. >But how can parents >teach their children to be empathic when they speak with them only a few >minutes a day?

 I will be the first to agree with you (personally) that many parents don’t spend an abundance of time with their kids.  However it is impossible to blame just one factor.  It is not only parenting.  Just as it is not only schools. Or only friends.  Or only personality types.   I can assure you that the jock/rich/clique thing is perpetuated by what our society tells us.  Look at what athletes are paid?  Look at what actors are paid.   I don’t have a written profile of all of the boys (and yes, it is just boys so far) who have committed these crimes at the schools…however, I am not sure that "spoiled brats" is the main theme. Being the center of the universe is a task of adolescence…as is toddlerhood. Stages that most pass through uneventfully. >I can see how some kids would just snap after years of torment at the hands >of these people.  Especially when their own parents don’t have time to >recognize what’s going on either.

My son who is 21 has recently shared things with me about his adolscence.  He is a good kid and I thought that I was a fairly good parent.  There were things that I did not see…and I was a stay at home mom most of his life.  I didn’t know much of what he was angry about.  Yet he did not go off the deep end (and hopefully never will).  I had the time, but as most teenagers, he did not want to talk to me.  Fortunately he does now. >All of these problems could be fixed by healthy families.  The problems >begin at home, and they could be fixed there as well, if people would only >wake up.

If only it were that easy Amused.  It would certainly be a good start however it will not solve the problems.  There are parents that are incapable of healthy parenting.  There is mental illness.  There is lack of money for some families to get help.  Many families perpetuate their family stuff.  Some kids are good kids and get in with the wrong crowd.  There is a long list of why and what causes kids to do crazy things.  It does not boil down to only one factor. > Our society is sick, and only when we gain the >collective courage to admit that fact will we ever have any hope of becoming >well again.

Yes, our society is very sick.  Admitting it is a start.  Getting everyone to do something about it is a dream.  The cycle begins long before one is in the womb.   ~~~~Don’t spit into the well–you might drink from it later.~~~

Response:

Oceanmomma wrote in message <19990521123317.23508.00002…@ng62.aol.com>… >How about if teachers are re-trained and include this in their teaching >plans…as simple as it may sound.

I think that would be a good step.  Also, school uniforms would be a good step.  Somehow, we need to foster a sense of belonging in all the students, and junk the fashion show. > I will be the first to agree with you (personally) that many parents don’t >spend an abundance of time with their kids.  However it is impossible to blame >just one factor.  It is not only parenting.  Just as it is not only schools. >Or only friends.  Or only personality types.

Yes, there are plenty of other contributing factors.  But I still believe that everything children become begins at home. >I can assure you that the jock/rich/clique thing is perpetuated by what our >society tells us.  Look at what athletes are paid?  Look at what actors are >paid.

Yes, it is perpetuated by society.  But again, society can be overcome if parents are willing to make the investment of time, love and attention in their children. >I don’t have a written profile of all of the boys (and yes, it is just boys so >far) who have committed these crimes at the schools…however, I am not sure >that "spoiled brats" is the main theme.

I wasn’t referring to the shooters as spoiled brats.  I was referring to the cliques who tormented the shooters before they became violent.  I do think ’spoiled brats’ is appropo in these cases.  When I was in High School, certain groups assumed they were simply better, more entitled than others. This perception only comes from the granting of rewards without responsibilities, and that comes from home more than anywhere else. >Being the center of the universe is a task of adolescence…as is toddlerhood. >Stages that most pass through uneventfully.

While most kids do see their own needs as paramount, as do most people, that perception can be tempered by a realization of the needs of others. Empathy, graciousness, sensitivity are things that can be fostered and learned.  But if it isn’t present at home, I doubt the lesson will be learned from anywhere else. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I can see how some kids would just snap after years of torment at the hands >>of these people.  Especially when their own parents don’t have time to >>recognize what’s going on either. >My son who is 21 has recently shared things with me about his adolscence. He >is a good kid and I thought that I was a fairly good parent.  There were things >that I did not see…and I was a stay at home mom most of his life.  I didn’t >know much of what he was angry about.  Yet he did not go off the deep end (and >hopefully never will).  I had the time, but as most teenagers, he did not want >to talk to me.  Fortunately he does now.

Children will not always talk with their parents, as you pointed out above. I can only speak from my own experiences, as my boys are still small.  When I was the ‘rebellious’ teen, although I wanted to deny what my parents had taught me, inside I couldn’t.  Parents are the first and best teachers.  My parents gave me a moral compass to live by, and though I didn’t always take the time to look at that compass, eventually it became part of me. Parenting will not eliminate the problems kids face.  But they key isn’t always avoiding a problem, the key is being given the right tools to deal with the problems they face. >If only it were that easy Amused.  It would certainly be a good start however >it will not solve the problems.  There are parents that are incapable of >healthy parenting.  There is mental illness.  There is lack of money for some >families to get help.  Many families perpetuate their family stuff.  Some kids >are good kids and get in with the wrong crowd.  There is a long list of why and >what causes kids to do crazy things.  It does not boil down to only one

factor. I believe it would solve the great majority of problems before they get out of control.  Yes, there are parents incapable of good parenting.  This does not change the fact that if they were capable of it, their childrens lives would be better, and society would be better as well. There are also those who ARE capable of good parenting, but for reasons of their own, they put their time and effort into other pursuits. The most fundamental unit in society is the family.  Within it, the seeds are sown for greatness, or despotism.  I do not excuse the shooters, nor do I consider them helpless victims.  We are all responsible for our own actions.  But I do think the situations which cause these students to crack, as well as the students inabilities to handle their own problems without violence, stems from the home.  The factors that affect the home come from society, but it’s there they can be dealt with, or not dealt with.  What we are seeing today is the result of that. >> Our society is sick, and only when we gain the >>collective courage to admit that fact will we ever have any hope of becoming >>well again. >Yes, our society is very sick.  Admitting it is a start.  Getting everyone to >do something about it is a dream.  The cycle begins long before one is in the >womb.

I may not be able to change society, and I may not be able to get others to wake up.  But, society isn’t going to change me, and hopefully my boys will take a lesson from this.  I still believe that things will get better, if I just do my part.  A dream?  Maybe.  But a dream worth having. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->~~~~Don’t spit into the well–you might drink >from it later.~~~

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